MARVEL' S Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[SwedishHeat]

It's interesting that no one is really empathizing with Isaiah's story, or the emotions that Sam is wrestling with. It's just people upset that the show even brought it up.

 

[Khev]

Isaiah: "If this country found out that there was a black Captain America I'd be instantly killed so I've refused to live my life or even set foot outside this house."

Sam: "We had a black president for eight years and have a black vice president now."

Isaiah: "****..."

 

[Wor-Gar]

I'm a little unclear about Isaiah's story. I understand what he is supposed to represent in this allegory... but I'm not clear on what his actual history is. What I gathered: he was a soldier that got the super-serum and it worked so well that they (the government) started experimenting on him to see why? A nurse took pity on him and helped him escape. And now he's in hiding, protected by two basketball players outside. I'm certain I'm missing more of the story here.

 

[Khev]

I'm a little unclear about Isaiah's story. I understand what he is supposed to represent in this allegory... but I'm not clear on what his actual history is. What I gathered: he was a soldier that got the super-serum and it worked so well that they (the government) started experimenting on him to see why? A nurse took pity on him and helped him escape. And now he's in hiding, protected by two basketball players outside. I'm certain I'm missing more of the story here.

 

[Wor-Gar]

They are the gatekeepers, aren't they?

 

[jye4ever]

lol@WG

 

[Bardoon]

I'm a little unclear about Isaiah's story. I understand what he is supposed to represent in this allegory... but I'm not clear on what his actual history is. What I gathered: he was a soldier that got the super-serum and it worked so well that they (the government) started experimenting on him to see why? A nurse took pity on him and helped him escape. And now he's in hiding, protected by two basketball players outside. I'm certain I'm missing more of the story here.

Yeah, that's the gist of it. In the comics, it was Wilfred Nagel AKA Josef Reinstein(?) that was working on recreating the super soldier serum since Erskine was dead and Rogers was gone (frozen in ice as well all know). Also, the US Government has "always" been trying to recreate the super soldier serum since WW2 and most of the secrets died with Erskine...looks like they also have in the MCU.

Looks like they played along the same story but it was the MCU Nagel who used Bradley's blood to isolate a "working" super soldier serum that eventually winded up in the hands of the Flag Smashers.

You hear him mention he was "sent on missions" and that his team died, I think. In the comics, Bradley steals a Captain America uniform to go on a final mission against orders and is court-martialed for it (prejudices involved as well). I don't think he mentioned specifically why he was locked up in the MCU show but it's clear he was shook up by his whole experience.

Reading the "TRUTH: Red, White, and Black" series can help fill some gaps.

 

[Khev]

"You will no longer need that shield. Basketball players, leave us. Oh, I'm afraid the boat will be quite operational when the flag smashers arrive." *cackles evilly*

 

[Bardoon]

It's interesting that no one is really empathizing with Isaiah's story, or the emotions that Sam is wrestling with. It's just people upset that the show even brought it up.

I think if they did some flashback about Isiah than that would help. Only other reference you got is the mini-series he's in.

 

[ZE_501]

It's interesting that no one is really empathizing with Isaiah's story, or the emotions that Sam is wrestling with. It's just people upset that the show even brought it up.

The general vibe seems to be that nobody wants their escapist fantasy tainted by the issues of the day. Some people think it's too heavy-handed, some people foam at the mouth and scream "AGENDA!1!", others just want action and superhero landings. I don't know how I feel about any of it anymore, to be honest. Not the issues of the day -- the whole genre.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The general vibe seems to be that nobody wants their escapist fantasy tainted by the issues of the day. Some people think it's too heavy-handed, some people foam at the mouth and scream "AGENDA!1!", others just want action and superhero landings. I don't know how I feel about any of it anymore, to be honest. Not the issues of the day -- the whole genre.

Me: more escapism, less politics of the day... important as they are. I'm a news junky so I'm not disqualifying anything socio-political... but men in tights (or breathable Nike material) gives the whole thing less gravitas. I love a little hard-edged backstory -- a little -- but lets get back to the point of these comic book superheroes, shall we?

Or let's do a trade -- for every political preach give me a great hand-to-hand or action/adventure moment.

 

[jye4ever]

"You will no longer need that shield. Basketball players, leave us. Oh, I'm afraid the boat will be quite operational when the flag smashers arrive." *cackles evilly*

Holy crap lol

This show has shown more boat maintenance than even Aquaman!

 

[Khev]

Holy crap lol

This show has shown more boat maintenance than even Aquaman!

They should have stuck with their earlier more accurate title.

"The Boat and the Whiny Girl: Guest Starring Bucky and Sam, With a Special Appearance by John Walker"

Early focus groups liked the ambiguous meaning of "Whiny Girl" and thought that fans would enjoy speculating whether it referred to Sam's sister, Enfys Nest, or Isaiah Bradley.

 

[jye4ever]

Don’t forget whiny Isaiah



The Falcon and the Whiner Soldier

Boo Hoo I have super strength but i’m going to be a coward and whine all my life about the white devil while white Steve Rogers stands up ALONE to freaking Thanos to save my ass and all of humanity including every race and culture!

 

[Khev]

Don’t forget whiny Isaiah

I didn't, lol.

The Falcon and the Whiner Soldier

Boo Hoo I have super strength but i’m going to be a coward and whine all my life about the white devil while white Steve Rogers stands up ALONE to freaking Thanos to save my ass and all of humanity including every race and culture!

Holy crap. I didn't even realize that. "I can join the fight anytime and use my super strength and reflexes to assist countless innocents but I refuse because I might get killed." He's the freaking anti-Steve. Don't worry Isaiah Steve will lead the armies of Wakanda into battle for you--TWICE.

Or Bucky who was used and abused decades longer than Isaiah and is assumedly a marked man by God knows how many government agencies is doing his part to make the world a better place.

Even loser Walker who was criminally underequipped by his government to go toe to toe with Enhanced beings and then publicly disgraced moped for about 30 whole seconds before immediately getting ready to suit up for battle again.

 

[jye4ever]

I didn't, lol.



Holy crap. I didn't even realize that. "I can join the fight anytime and use my super strength and reflexes to assist countless innocents but I refuse because I might get killed." He's the freaking anti-Steve. Don't worry Isaiah Steve will lead the armies of Wakanda into battle for you--TWICE.

Or Bucky who was used and abused decades longer than Isaiah and is assumedly a marked man by God knows how many government agencies is doing his part to make the world a better place.

Even loser Walker who was criminally underequipped by his government to go toe to toe with Enhanced beings and then publicly disgraced moped for about 30 whole seconds before immediately getting ready to suit up for battle again.

Savage lol

 

[e30ernest]

That's cause you'll be thrown into their concentration camps!

Haha I went on a tour there back in 2010 and being the young naive guy I was back then, asked the tour guide about what happened there. She then went on to talk about emperors and stuff. Then I said no "I was thinking about 1989, you should have been born by then", to which she replied "we don't talk about that here".

 

[Sassafras]

It's interesting that no one is really empathizing with Isaiah's story, or the emotions that Sam is wrestling with. It's just people upset that the show even brought it up.

Is upset = irritated? Well, yeah. Am never thrilled with what I think of as blatant, rather forced narratives that are sort of a one-up-man ship of well-established characters that have been around for a good while. So I don't like the Truth comic anyway. Just like I don't like feminized established male characters.

We have a character, who does the same thing Captain America does (narrative repeat #1), and then takes on the Winter Soldier (narrative repeat #2 - and is able to find this "ghost" when NO-ONE else can), and then kicks his butt and takes his arm off (narrative repeat #3, but hey, he's even better than Steve Rogers at it, and for that matter, Iron Man, who needed an advanced arc reactor to do the same thing -oh, and Bucky was crushing IM's suit at one point) and is tortured and experimented on (narrative repeat #4) but his suffering, is WORSE e.g. "better". Doesn't compute.

Not that Carl Lumbly didn't do a fantastic job in the part. But there's nothing even the best actor can do when at least some of the audience has been there, done that or stuff feels like bs within the rules of a created world.

As for Sam, for me anyway, doesn't compute either that all of a sudden this guy is having all this angst, when after several movies in, he seemed like one of the most grounded of the characters. Since Riley was such a good friend Sam actually left the military after he death, to me seems like he already would have worked a lot of stuff out. Or he shouldn't have been a counselor. It's like Spellman & co. forgot the audience already has a long history with Cap & his friends, and decided to write up some depressing OTT current event fan fiction. Apparently a lot of people do like it. I feel like "eh".

Not very.

What is there to re-watch? The great action -- No. A great story -- not really? Acting -- no. Some amazing cliffhangers... or important MCU history... not too much.

But if you like Louisiana fishing boats -- YES!!!

In truth, I like the idea of bad Captain America and his fall... it was just delivered so heavy-handed that it became more message than story. The message should never be so obvious upon first viewing. It should be subtle. It should be hidden in plain sight but beneath action and the story at hand. Then, on 2nd viewing you realize the ulterior meaning, the true meaning. That's when stories feel like they have depth -- when you have to pull back the layers. Not when its spoon-fed to you.

Think I feel something similar....I'd argue the performances are great tho. Except - while Anthony Mackie is a fine actor, this part requiring a pretty much constant grimness isn't playing to his strengths.

Heavy handed - yeah. I keep thinking of the interchange between Nat and Steve in TWS "I thought I knew the lies I was telling...I guess I can't tell the difference anymore". Like, this is a fairly brief scene, but IMO perfect. It telegraphs volumes about what Nat is going through, and her loss, without banging you in the head with it.

Guess it's a style preference but so far, the Russos and their writers Markus and Mcfeely are gonna stay my favorite MCU showrunners/writers. To me feels very clean, tight, editing. A good balance between action and quiet moments.

Not gonna say FWS is bad - it's just - it's too stuck in a Louisiana swamp, for me. SO MUCH ANGST.

 

[Khev]

Is upset = irritated? Well, yeah. Am never thrilled with what I think of as blatant, rather forced narratives that are sort of a one-up-man ship of well-established characters that have been around for a good while. So I don't like the Truth comic anyway. Just like I don't like feminized established male characters.

We have a character, who does the same thing Captain America does (narrative repeat #1), and then takes on the Winter Soldier (narrative repeat #2 - and is able to find this "ghost" when NO-ONE else can), and then kicks his butt and takes his arm off (narrative repeat #3, but hey, he's even better than Steve Rogers at it, and for that matter, Iron Man, who needed an advanced arc reactor to do the same thing -oh, and Bucky was crushing IM's suit at one point) and is tortured and experimented on (narrative repeat #4) but his suffering, is WORSE e.g. "better". Doesn't compute.

Not that Carl Lumbly didn't do a fantastic job in the part. But there's nothing even the best actor can do when at least some of the audience has been there, done that or stuff feels like bs within the rules of a created world.

As for Sam, for me anyway, doesn't compute either that all of a sudden this guy is having all this angst, when after several movies in, he seemed like one of the most grounded of the characters. Since Riley was such a good friend Sam actually left the military after he death, to me seems like he already would have worked a lot of stuff out. Or he shouldn't have been a counselor. It's like Spellman & co. forgot the audience already has a long history with Cap & his friends, and decided to write up some depressing OTT current event fan fiction. Apparently a lot of people do like it. I feel like "eh".




Think I feel something similar....I'd argue the performances are great tho. Except - while Anthony Mackie is a fine actor, this part requiring a pretty much constant grimness isn't playing to his strengths.

Heavy handed - yeah. I keep thinking of the interchange between Nat and Steve in TWS "I thought I knew the lies I was telling...I guess I can't tell the difference anymore". Like, this is a fairly brief scene, but IMO perfect. It telegraphs volumes about what Nat is going through, and her loss, without banging you in the head with it.

Guess it's a style preference but so far, the Russos and their writers Markus and Mcfeely are gonna stay my favorite MCU showrunners/writers. To me feels very clean, tight, editing. A good balance between action and quiet moments.

Not gonna say FWS is bad - it's just - it's too stuck in a Louisiana swamp, for me. SO MUCH ANGST.

Damn, so well said.

 

[ironwez20]

Damn you guys really mad at isiah huh?
I mean sheesh the guy got trauma. Of course he didn?t fight with cap America. He felt betrayed by the world he protected. I know you guys don?t sympathize. And I?m not gonna get into it further but it?s how some felt after ww2. They felt betrayed by America. Cause they fought for the country and came home to racism .

Anyway back to the toys