Greatest Movie CHARACTERS Tournament - FINAL MATCH!! - .Darth Vader vs Indiana Jones.

[batfan08]

I think the important thing to remember is that the PT effectively demolished Vader's character. The most badass Sith Lord in the universe is revealed to be "little orphan Ani." Quality wise, those movies were bad, and KotCS wasn't any better, but the difference is that refrigerators, CGI monkeys, and Shia Ladouche being the product of his balls aside, Indy still came out of that movie Indy.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

It wasn't about the PT ... at least not to me. Before the PT, Vader was an incomplete character. He was evil, turned back good -- but what turned him in the first place? The PT answered that question. Without that answer, the character isn't developed. He's not the Joker ... a man without a backstory. He had a backstory. The backstory matters. The OT was the story of Skywalker, not Vader.

Some didn't like the answer the PT gave (I thought it was good enough -- I liked the PT). The problem with Vader wasn't the PT. It's that he's incomplete without the PT.

I'd've voted Jones if it was just Raiders vs. just Star Wars, just the original trilogies, or the entire movie library. Raiders might've won it for him by itself.

SnakeDoc

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I think the important thing to remember is that the PT effectively demolished Vader's character. The most badass Sith Lord in the universe is revealed to be "little orphan Ani." Quality wise, those movies were bad, and KotCS wasn't any better, but the difference is that refrigerators, CGI monkeys, and Shia Ladouche being the product of his balls aside, Indy still came out of that movie Indy.

I think the Vader debacle started with ROTJ. Not only does he get his *** kicked by a noob "Jedi" (after what... a week of training?), but before that they show him having some good in him and by the end of the film, he's a sympathetic figure, a poppet controlled by the Emperor.

This didn't help either

 

[Khev]

It wasn't about the PT ... at least not to me. Before the PT, Vader was an incomplete character. He was evil, turned back good -- but what turned him in the first place?

The Dark Side of the Force turned him. It seduced him and was all perfectly explained in the OT. Then we saw an example of what that seduction looked like through the temptation offered to Luke by Vader and the Emperor. Any playing out of that exposition was just for the fun of it and totally unnecessary. His character was considered "complete" for over 20 years.

 

[Niltusk]

The Dark Side of the Force turned him. It seduced him and was all perfectly explained in the OT. Then we saw an example of what that seduction looked like through the temptation offered to Luke by Vader and the Emperor. Any playing out of that exposition was just for the fun of it and totally unnecessary. His character was considered "complete" for over 20 years.

Exactly, the PT was totally unnecessary.

 

[cokebabies]

That would have worked. And then Vader could have taken off his mask to reveal Tobey from HR.

There's no greater villain than a full-on rapist.

 

[cilantropants]

I voted for Garp's babysitter. I demand a recount.

 

[greygoose]

It's funny that people say the PT ruined Vader as a character when the new movies could potentially ruin more than just the one character, Han, Luke, Leia...What happens then, does everything in the OT just become something no-one can enjoy and like anymore?

 

[Khev]

It's funny that people say the PT ruined Vader as a character when the new movies could potentially ruin more than just the one character, Han, Luke, Leia...What happens then, does everything in the OT just become something no-one can enjoy and like anymore?

Yeah, I think its really dumb if people are acting like crappy sequels/prequels somehow negate an iconic character that endured for decades. Vader clearly isn't the same character in anything but name compared to the bastardized reimaginings that appeared in the prequels. I think people took their bitterness to this thread. Indy, who can barely sell a collectible figure or statue, is more beloved on this site than Vader? Yeah right.

I guess the ALIEN and Jaws are no longer fearsome icons because of AVP and Jaws The Revenge.

 

[greygoose]

I guess the ALIEN and Jaws are no longer fearsome icons because of AVP and Jaws The Revenge.

People seem to forget those movies when referring to movies such as Alien and JAWS yet from my experience on here they can't seem to let go of the PT.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Exactly, the PT was totally unnecessary.

It was necessary for the story of Anakin/ Vader. Luke's story was self-contained in the OT. Anakin's wasn't. The OT only told the end of Vader.

SnakeDoc

 

[EVILFACE]

People wanted the PT for 20 years, got it and do nothing but whine about it.

 

[cilantropants]

Anakin's story - all that we needed to know - was covered perfectly in the OT. The prequels ruined everything that made Vader interesting as a character.

 

[cilantropants]

People wanted the PT for 20 years, got it and do nothing but whine about it.

In all my years I don't recall a single person I knew, or still know, ever once even offhandedly musing that they wanted to know what came before.
No, the PT was like an ex who was really dumb but hot, coming back and waking you up with a BJ, and you finding out during that she had shark teeth implants.

 

[DiFabio]

Vader kinda sucked before the Prequels because of ROTJ too. Marshmallow head was one of the biggest disappointments I had as a kid. After Empire, my mind imagined something way more awesome and twisted under than that mask than some pathetic old guy. Vader really looks like a ***** in ROTJ. He's at the height of his villainy in Empire in my opinion.

Also, greygoose and Khev, last time I checked Alien and Jaws didn't have their creators tinkering around with the original films/stories. Even though I don't consider the prequels "canon", there's no doubt that the perception of Vader has changed over time. Jaws and Alien are forever, and finite. Vader is from Star Wars, and is well, not. Once we were given a peek at who was behind the mask, Vader became a lot less appealing. Parred with the prequels (Darth being nothing more than a title), Lucas' edits on the original films (ROTJ's recent "nooooooo!"), etc. it's hard to see that original 80s bad ass.

I'll have moments of nostalgia where I can see Vader in the light I saw him as a kid, but now a days it's kind of tough. I need the rose tinted glasses to be able to see him as cool and not a pathetic cripple that used to be a slave that cried about his momma and Padme. Even without the prequels, as cool as Vader was, once Luke took off the helmet/mask and we saw the pasty dude with a weak voice and bushy eyebrows, Vader's presence sort of diminished.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Anakin's story - all that we needed to know - was covered perfectly in the OT. The prequels ruined everything that made Vader interesting as a character.

I disagree. We knew all we needed to know for the OT movies. But, not enough for Vader to be the greatest movie character of all time. Without the PT, the character isn't complete enough for that. Greatest villain, maybe. Greatest character, no. For me, the gap would've been bigger without the prequels.

SnakeDoc

 

[cilantropants]

Which all made him the most boring character in movie history. Without the mystery, he's just a brat who wants his mommy.
I don't think he's the greatest character anyway. He was a great character (pre-PT), but with the mystery blown, he's sad and pathetic. That doesn't mean tragic, which would give him some credibility. He's by no means tragic. He was an idiot from the start. Just another idiot with too much power who let himself be abused, willingly.

 

[DiFabio]

I can't buy into why Vader would listen to the Emperor in the OT (or live a life of torment) and I definitely don't buy Anakin's turn in the Prequels.

Wanting to save people and prevent their death only to pledge yourself to a being that destroys people and causes death? Doesn't make much sense to me. The ROTS reasoning for why Anakin turned is the most ludicrous thing in all the films in my opinion. He killed kids and pledged himself to a guy that is clearly the epitome of evil, just to save his wife whom he . . . strangles? Huh?

Really, the Jedi were evil and plotting to take over the senate? He's the one that blabbed to the Council that Palps was no good . . . so then he betrays them and sides with the orchestrator of these wars AND follows orders to kill his friends/cohorts. Pretty ****ed reasoning. Even if you disregard the prequels, his reasoning for existence and following the dark side is ****ed in the OT as well. I know I've had this discussion/argument with Kara (I think), but Vader is pretty adamant about pleasing his master and abiding to the dark side. There shouldn't have been a doubt in his mind that his own flesh and blood comes before some old geezer that treats him as a slave and a crappy religion that made him lose his limbs and ****! In fact, he seems to genuinely want Luke to kill him off and take his place as the Emperor's *****. Pretty dumb reasoning if you asked me. I was all for Vader in Empire when he was on a power trip, chocking his officers and telling his son that they should overthrow the Emperor. But by ROTJ? No, he really wants to serve the Emperor and turn his own boy into a monster, to the point where he provokes him in the hopes of Luke going berserk and lobbing his damn head off! Would Vader have been happy if Luke listened to the Emperor when Palps told him to kill Vader and take his fathers place at his side? That's idiotic. The movies never present the dark side as a thing that would benefit someone from giving into it's temptations. Vader, OT and PT looks like a giant puss to it. He was cool when he viewed it and respected it as a religion in the original film back when he was just a commanding officer to Tarkin and the gang, or in Empire when it seemed like he had aspirations to over throw Palps, but once you find out he intends to always serve his "master" and was an EMO POS ***** before he got the mask, it's hard to really think of him as being cool.

 

[greygoose]

Vader kinda sucked before the Prequels because of ROTJ too. Marshmallow head was one of the biggest disappointments I had as a kid. After Empire, my mind imagined something way more awesome and twisted under than that mask than some pathetic old guy. Vader really looks like a ***** in ROTJ. He's at the height of his villainy in Empire in my opinion.

Also, greygoose and Khev, last time I checked Alien and Jaws didn't have their creators tinkering around with the original films/stories. Even though I don't consider the prequels "canon", there's no doubt that the perception of Vader has changed over time. Jaws and Alien are forever, and finite. Vader is from Star Wars, and is well, not. Once we were given a peek at who was behind the mask, Vader became a lot less appealing. Parred with the prequels (Darth being nothing more than a title), Lucas' edits on the original films (ROTJ's recent "nooooooo!"), etc. it's hard to see that original 80s bad ass.

I'll have moments of nostalgia where I can see Vader in the light I saw him as a kid, but now a days it's kind of tough. I need the rose tinted glasses to be able to see him as cool and not a pathetic cripple that used to be a slave that cried about his momma and Padme. Even without the prequels, as cool as Vader was, once Luke took off the helmet/mask and we saw the pasty dude with a weak voice and bushy eyebrows, Vader's presence sort of diminished.

Whilst it would have been great to watch the OT in cinemas I'm glad that didn't have that 16 year wait for the PT. Whereas most of you guys on here view the Star Wars movies as two separate trilogies, having been only 12 years old at the time Ep I was released my Star Wars viewing experience is based on a six film series. At least that way my generation avoided the major disappointment felt towards the PT and any negativity towards ROTJ as a bookend of the OT. I find that way I can appreciate Vader at his peak in ESB. Hope that makes sense.

 

[EVILFACE]

Wanting to save people and prevent their death only to pledge yourself to a being that destroys people and causes death? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Protecting ones family at any length is the main theme these days.

Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, 24, even the Fast and Furious flicks. All have main character(s) that leave a path of destruction behind to protect their family.

As for SW, just watch all the flicks with kids eyes, because as an adult you will how flawed they are. And muppets.....