Fantastic Four - November 6, 2024

I've lost most of my interest in ongoing Marvel/DC and Star Wars but I'll offer something here

davejames said:

I'll never quite understand people getting outraged over CBM casting. Yeah there have been some odd casting decisions made over the years, but usually they were in sucky movies that nobody cared about anyway. Lol

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But that would be of no consolation if the casting was a contributing factor in why they were sucky movies.....

davejames said:

And the article makes clear that she's playing a different character from Silver Surfer, so this isn't a gender swap situation that people always like to freak out about. And so far I'm feeling a lot more optimistic about this movie than the previous attempts we got, given the much better actors involved.

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Fair enough but it does likely mean that the Silver Surfer that fans want to see has been relegated in favour of a more obscure variant. This is, I gather, an important character for comic fans and he now will not be front and center, if he ever appears at all.

a-dev said:

Fair enough but it does likely mean that the Silver Surfer that fans want to see has been relegated in favour of a more obscure variant. This is, I gather, an important character for comic fans and he now will not be front and center, if he ever appears at all.

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I'm thinking they just want to save him for his own movie, instead of having him be another side character like he was in FF2. Since that didn't go so well and they don't want people to think this is a rehash of a 17 year old movie.

davejames said:

I'll never quite understand people getting outraged over CBM casting. Yeah there have been some odd casting decisions made over the years, but usually they were in sucky movies that nobody cared about anyway. Lol

And the article makes clear that she's playing a different character from Silver Surfer, so this isn't a gender swap situation that people always like to freak out about. And so far I'm feeling a lot more optimistic about this movie than the previous attempts we got, given the much better actors involved.

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Because if we were ever going to get a Silver Surfer done right this was the nexus point. I mean what hope is there now? are they going to throw him in an end credit scene to tease? We already had Captain Marvel a cosmic powered character, so they give us another with this alternate universe Shalla Bal , if he shows up, that aspect isn't going to dazzle like it would have if it was straight up Surfer done right first. And if FF bombs, which is very possible if MCU is sinking, as most agree it is, end of the road. My biggest dream of course, and SS is one of my top favorite characters if not the top. Is a dedicated to him origins film like many other characters got, done with the greatest respect for the original material.

karamazov80 said:

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That game was a bych! LOL Saw that screen probably 1000 times. LOL

Read something very interesting in Facebook, it was supposedly a quote be Jack Kirby, I think. The gist of it was that the Silver Surfer was a way to express a soldier's experience wielding great destructive power, but being forced to blindly follow orders, and how he struggles with his conscience until he frees himself.

I suppose there are enough women soldiers for the point to still be valid, but it does give you pause to think.

Dave_W said:

The MCU peaked years ago and has now become just another bunch of films that fade into the background.

Marvel has to keep the momentum going to keep themselves somewhat relevant. I'm hoping that once the mutants show up things pick up again.

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Tbh and I’m just gonna say it the mcu never wowed me.
People use to glaze it hard everywhere in the 2010s and even on here. They could do no wrong. I didn’t think avengers 2012 was all that great and I didn’t feel like it was a marvel universe.

It was so broken. How can you have a marvel universe without Spider-Man , xmen, ff , and some of the others that were shackled to Netflix and other studios. You don’t. It was an avengers universe. It wasn’t anywhere close to a definitive marvel universe.

I didn’t get hooked until civil war with black panther and Spider-Man . Cause now we are branching out from just avengers stuff.

But the disrespect was insane . I heard so many people saying “we don’t need the xmen or Spider-Man. They aren’t interesting” the recency bias was laughable.

Then marvel doubled down and literally tried to bury these iconic characters like xmen and ff all because they didn’t have the movie rights. So yea I look at the 2010s mcu as good but not great and def not a definitive marvel universe. Iron man and cap were like the only interesting aspects of the avengers for me.

I love how xmen 97 has reminded people why they are so much better than the avengers

But don’t get me wrong I still love infinity war. But yea the avengers movies like aou and 2012 were never all that great. Dudes in tights fighting gray aliens or robots

abake said:

Read something very interesting in Facebook, it was supposedly a quote be Jack Kirby, I think. The gist of it was that the Silver Surfer was a way to express a soldier's experience wielding great destructive power, but being forced to blindly follow orders, and how he struggles with his conscience until he frees himself.

I suppose there are enough women soldiers for the point to still be valid, but it does give you pause to think.

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You clearly haven’t witnessed my wife’s battles with cooking and parallel parking she’s the herald of over cooked pork chops and scuffed rims!

Ok, I'm sure I'll take crap for this, but it's pretty simple to understand why Disney is changing the Silver Surfer to female. Knowing his origin story, it perfectly fits in with todays Hollywood narrative...

A quick summary...

Zenn-La was a peaceful planet that essentially became a Utopia after overcoming centuries of War. When Galactus came, Norrin Radd sacrificed himself to save his planet, people, and the Woman he loved. He basically sold his soul to the devil, and was lied to and manipulated in the process. The deal was for Galactus to spare his planet (and the love of his life, Shalla-Bal) and make him is herald/servant so he could guide him to uninhabited planets for consumption/sustenance. Thus also saving countless other worlds/species/races from destruction and extinction. Which ultimately turned out to be a lie/deception as Galactus wiped his memory clean in which he forgot about his planet, Shalla-Bal, and stopped him from everything he thought he would be doing in saving other worlds from the same fate. A Hero not just to his people and home world, but to the unknowing universe as well.

Norrin was a white male who became a selfless hero and savior to his planet and his love. The most noble of actions one could commit to. Sacrificing himself in the process. It is literally the perfect character to change to the female narrative. For it to be a women to sacrifice herself to save her planet (and maybe/maybe not her lover) and countless lives/worlds throughout the universe and be selfless in the process. This is not what current Hollywood wants to portray, a White Male as a savior/selfless hero. That is the Female's role now. Not a man's, especially one that is white.

The male Silver Surfer, Norrin Radd, has been in maybe thousands of comics since 1966. 58 years of stories and history. The female version they choose instead, the Shalla-Bal female Silver Surfer, is from a very short lived mini-series called Earth-X in an alternate multiverse. A handful of comics. This is why long time fans, such as myself, are annoyed. And so the swap can be defended and call out the naysers as ists and phobes. Because it actually happened in the comics and isn't just a gender swap. Fox's crappy FF version will most likely be the closest we get to an accurate comic Silver Surfer being represented on the big screen.

Shalla-Bal was a strong powerful character who later even became the Empress of Zenn-La and saved her world as well. She always was a strong female character, never a damsel in distress. But I guess that is of less importance than being the hero/savior.

And the fact that this was announced just 2 hours after Iger's win over Peltz. Thus retaining his Disney Board members and giving an interview how Disney is not woke and will no longer be doing/making changes (such as this) but just concentrating on strong story telling as it always has been...

loki2371 said:

This is not what current Hollywood wants to portray, a White Male as a savior/selfless hero

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Have you stopped watching movies all together or something? Nearly every movie that comes out has a white guy as the hero.

Quill nearly died (again) in GOTG3, Batman in The Flash repeatedly died in order to make sure they won, Barry sacrificed getting his mum back in order to correct the multiverse, Spider-man sacrificed his friends knowing him to keep them safe. I'm sure there are a **** ton of others that I don't know of.

Haters gonna hate.

Dave_W said:

Have you stopped watching movies all together or something? Nearly every movie that comes out has a white guy as the hero.

Quill nearly died (again) in GOTG3, Batman in The Flash repeatedly died in order to make sure they won, Barry sacrificed getting his mum back in order to correct the multiverse, Spider-man sacrificed his friends knowing him to keep them safe. I'm sure there are a **** ton of others that I don't know of.

Haters gonna hate.

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Defenders/Shills gonna Defend/Shill....

Just like I said. Someone would call me something for explaining why I'm a bit annoyed at the news. Cant just be unhappy. Must be an underlying reason.. Thanks for proving me right.

You realize your mostly quoting/using examples from all movies that started BEFORE the current Hollywood tropes..

The MCU was mostly accurate to the comics history until a point. Until after Disney took over and started to have some influence. They can't change the characters they already established (although that didn't stop them from doing it to Han, Luke and Indy). Keaton is the Batman from 1989, The Flash is played by someone who is LGBTQ and no where in the DCU is it proven he does not conform to such. And Spider-Man is the one character that supposedly Stan Lee said/contracted can never deviate from the Peter Parker we know. Thus why all the movies versions are white heterosexual males...

I don't think I need to make a list of the CURRENT movies that have either race/gender swapped, emasculated or made villains of males.. Specifically one type. That list, of major Hollywood properties/blockbusters, will be waaay longer than yours..

loki2371 said:

Defenders/Shills gonna Defend/Shill....

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Just stating facts

loki2371 said:

Just like I said. Someone would call me something for explaining why I'm a bit annoyed at the news.

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Because your point about white guy saviour replacement isn't valid.

loki2371 said:

Cant just be unhappy. Must be an underlying reason.

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Yes, that is how emotions work.

loki2371 said:

You realize your mostly quoting/using examples from all movies that started BEFORE the current Hollywood tropes..

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The Flash was last year, so was GOTG3. NWH was '21. Did this 'trend' only start in 2024?

loki2371 said:

Keaton is the Batman from 1989

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They didn't have to include him.

loki2371 said:

The Flash is played by someone who is LGBTQ and no where in the DCU is it proven he does not conform to such.

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It's called acting.

loki2371 said:

And Spider-Man is the one character that supposedly Stan Lee said/contracted can never deviate from the Peter Parker we know. Thus why all the movies versions are white heterosexual males...

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And Hollywood is so woke, they put 3 white Spider-Men all in the same film.

loki2371 said:

I don't think I need to make a list of the CURRENT movies that have either race/gender swapped, emasculated or made villains of males.. Specifically one type. That list, of major Hollywood properties/blockbusters, will be waaay longer than yours..

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Why confine the criteria so that it suits your point? Lets go all the way back and make a list of ALL the Hollywood films with white guys as heroes vs everyone else?

Dave_W said

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Just stating facts

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So am I

Because your point about white guy saviour replacement isn't valid.

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Yes it is. I'm just not allowed to have an opinion that doesn't align with yours. So you called me a hater.

Yes, that is how emotions work.

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Guess you deleted that...

The Flash was last year, so was GOTG3. NWH was '21. Did this 'trend' only start in 2024?

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The Flash is the same Flash from the Justice League movie released in 2017, filmed in 2016, made over 8 years ago. Guardians was in 2014, filmed 2013, over 10 years ago. Made from a script written By James Gunn before Disney fired him for something he did a decade prior and apologized for, then rehired him back cause they needed to finish Guardians and make some $$. I already stated WHY Parker in the MCU is still the same...

They didn't have to include him.

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It was done for the $$, to broaden/get the nostalgia audience back since the DCEU was failing.

It's called acting.

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Not even sure what you mean. Yes, people who play other people in movies are, in fact, acting.

And Hollywood is so woke, they put 3 white Spider-Men all in the same film.

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Again, for $$ and nostalgia, And like I said, reason why all Parkers are the same. Even in Sony's SpiderVerse animated movie.

Why confine the criteria so that it suits your point? Lets go all the way back and make a list of ALL the Hollywood films with white guys as heroes vs everyone else?

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I never once said there wasn't enough. I said it's the new Hollywood Trope. There are also many female hero led Hollywood movies. You can make a list of all those to prove that the industry wasn't "severaly lacking".

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Snapshot (above) of Wiki Intro entry for Silver Surfer^
For some 2 Decades, no one on the Wiki SS page gave a $#!+ about the alt universe Shalla-Bal Surfer, who is a Surfer for one alt U issue, then dies the next!
A character near meaningless and insignificant to the legacy and history of the Surfer.

Snapshot (bellow) wiki after April 3 2024,
She is suddenly the next most significant entry in his intro.

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If you are curious
Her first .....

....


....and last appearance the next issue

That burst of orange is her^, literally three panels later. That's it, what they are using to justify the change as (she's part of the comic history, I saw it on Wikipedia))
This completely insignificant character.
Is suddenly the most significant character in the MCU to them, over the one who embodied and defined the character for over half-century.

loki2371 said:

So am I

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You said modern Hollywood doesn't want white males as saviours. That isn't a fact as my examples point out. There may be fewer white guys on screen, but that's because screen time is finite.

loki2371 said:

I'm just not allowed to have an opinion that doesn't align with yours. So you called me a hater.

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Of course you are, just have an opinion that is based in reality please.

loki2371 said:

Guess you deleted that...

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No, that was the whole line. The edit was adding it in.

loki2371 said:

The Flash is the same Flash from the Justice League movie released in 2017, filmed in 2016, made over 8 years ago. Guardians was in 2014, filmed 2013, over 10 years ago. Made from a script written By James Gunn before Disney fired him for something he did a decade prior and apologized for, then rehired him back cause they needed to finish Guardians and make some $$. I already stated WHY Parker in the MCU is still the same...

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So? They could have had Supergirl save the day or a black midget lesbian Flash from another multiverse do it. Guardians 3 was 2023, I never mentioned Guardians 1. They could have had Miles' intro in NWH, but they went with the woke white guy nostaligia route.

loki2371 said:

It was done for the $$, to broaden/get the nostalgia audience back since the DCEU was failing.

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At least we know $$ comes before agenda with WB.

loki2371 said:

Not even sure what you mean. Yes, people who play other people in movies are, in fact, acting.

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Yeah, which is why LGBTQIA+ people can play straight cis characters an it doesn't have to be mentioned that they are still straight on screen. Unless you meant something else with the whole 'at no point did they confirm that Flash is cis' point.

loki2371 said:

Again, for $$ and nostalgia, And like I said, reason why all Parkers are the same. Even in Sony's SpiderVerse animated movie.

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And again, so woke they'd rather have 3 white Spider men than Spider Gwen and Miles in NWH. For a company with an anti white male agenda, they're not very good at replacing white males are they?

loki2371 said:

There are also many female hero led Hollywood movies. You can make a list of all those to prove that the industry wasn't "severaly lacking".

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Not as many as male ones I bet.

Well hold on is this an alternate universe reality silver surfer or is this supposed to be the actual mcu one? Because it seems like this isn’t meant to be the actual silver surfer nor is this the actual mcu. It’s like a 60s version of the mcu.

But I’m gonna say this right now I’m all for galactus being lizzo in the film. She quit music so maybe she can do that

ironwez20 said:

Well hold on is this an alternate universe reality silver surfer or is this supposed to be the actual mcu one? Because it seems like this isn’t meant to be the actual silver surfer nor is this the actual mcu. It’s like a 60s version of the mcu.

But I’m gonna say this right now I’m all for galactus being lizzo in the film. She quit music so maybe she can do that

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Well it depends if they carry her over to the 616 or have Norrin Rad as the 616 version. Either way Disney can't win. If they keep her, 'Disney sucks'. If they have Norrin Rad, it will be because 'Disney caved in after the backlash and back peddled'. Haters gonna hate.

What I don't get is how they get these mindless sycophants to become their mouthpieces and defend these derivative uncreative characters they've "known" for about a minute, enough to hate on those who have loved and celebrated a character who defined and embodied the concept for decades, and want to see it represented on film.

And whether it's some alt Universe or not, this is significant because Surfer was historically introduced through the FF. His first appearance there has always formed part of his narrative legacy. And this is what the MCU is currently representing as their FF, So having someone else replace him there betrays that.

Dave_W said:

You said modern Hollywood doesn't want white males as saviours. That isn't a fact as my examples point out. There may be fewer white guys on screen, but that's because screen time is finite.



Of course you are, just have an opinion that is based in reality please.



No, that was the whole line. The edit was adding it in.



So? They could have had Supergirl save the day or a black midget lesbian Flash from another multiverse do it. Guardians 3 was 2023, I never mentioned Guardians 1. They could have had Miles' intro in NWH, but they went with the woke white guy nostaligia route.



At least we know $$ comes before agenda with WB.



Yeah, which is why LGBTQIA+ people can play straight cis characters an it doesn't have to be mentioned that they are still straight on screen. Unless you meant something else with the whole 'at no point did they confirm that Flash is cis' point.



And again, so woke they'd rather have 3 white Spider men than Spider Gwen and Miles in NWH. For a company with an anti white male agenda, they're not very good at replacing white males are they?



Not as many as male ones I bet.

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Ok, whatever. It takes too much time to do this. You have your own problems with what your UK has done to their own beloved Dr. Who...

You got me pegged. I'm a privileged evil cis white male hater. I'm racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and all the rest too.

All because when I started reading comics in the mid 80's and the Silver Surfer became one of my favorite characters, I'm wrong to have wanted/hoped to see an accurate representation of a character I enjoy and have supported and spent thousands of dollars on for nearly 40 years portrayed on the big screen by the company that created him.

loki2371 said:

Ok, whatever. It takes too much time to do this. You have your own problems with what your UK has done to their own beloved Dr. Who...

You got me pegged. I'm a privileged evil cis white male hater. I'm racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and all the rest too.

All because when I started reading comics in the mid 80's and the Silver Surfer became one of my favorite characters, I'm wrong to have wanted/hoped to see an accurate representation of a character I enjoy and have supported and spent thousands of dollars on for nearly 40 years portrayed on the big screen by the company that created him.

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Well, if the shoe fits.


I jest of course.

Look, being annoyed that the most popular version of a character is being sidelined for a much lesser known one is totally understandable. If they had binned off the DCEU and the next Superman franchise going forward was centered around Calvin Ellis I'd be pissed too. I want Clark Kent, not some poor imitation. How we differ though is I wouldn't start going on about how DC hates white males and it's a big conspiracy to replace them in media. That rhetoric can lead to somewhere a lot more nefarious than just being pissed at comic book accuracy.

I'm not saying you or anyone else here is one of that lot. I don't know any of you enough to make that kind of statement, but when certain groups would agree with you, it's not a good look and you know how easy it is to make sweeping generalisations.

Btw, Dr. Who has always been ****!

Not surprised by the gender swap. Diversity bean counters are going to bean count to fill their quota (and lose millions in the process).