Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

Wor-Gar said:

If I make Indiana Jones in Space,...

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Careful, you know Disney story group is trawling for "new" ideas, you just helped one of them fail upwards.

They are welcome to it -- best idea to get to them in years.

Seven Samurai was also remade as Pixar’s ‘A Bug’s Life’.

Anyways, just saw Rebel Moon last night. It wasn’t the worst thing ever but it‘s not very good.
Anyone notice the SFX seemed to get worse as the film went on? It seemed Video game quality by the end.

T8OO said:

Like this?

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OK that negates my premise, which just means that regardless of what he said most people were still going to be turned off by such an unoriginal story lol...

Wor-Gar said:

If I make Indiana Jones in Space, and literally replicate the story of Raiders of the Lost Ark is that still "homage" to you?

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If we are using the term 'literally' in its original sense then sure I wouldn't class that as homage.

Wor-Gar said:

If I make Indiana Jones in Space, and literally replicate the story of Raiders of the Lost Ark is that still "homage" to you?

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Indiana Jones in space was pretty close with the Crystal Skull.

The Buffinator said:

The difference is Lucas drew inspiration from those sources but he didn't replicate their basic plots, nor did he shamelessly crib ideas from other movies. That Honest Trailer was obviously made for laughs but nonetheless many of the points made with respect to the lack of originality ring true. Whether Snyder did it deliberately or unconsciously (like a rock band unknowingly reusing someone else's riff in a song), it's still a form of plagiarism. Not that anyone's going to be up in arms over that in the movie industry, but when the foundation for this franchise is a patchwork quilt of previously seen plots, tropes and character types the desire to see more of it wanes considerably.

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I understand your position on it but do not see it that way at all. It’s okay with me that we do this dance, but at the end of the day we’re just restating our positions. (Maybe with a bit more nuance each time, though!) You’ve got your narrative, and I’ve got mine. But I don’t see Zack as a thief of other creatives’ ideas as you do. I see him as paying homage to those elements and also probably working with something more ‘meta’ about the fact that artists are always inspired and influenced by other artists. Plus there’s the mythic/archetypal level that’s a shared collective experience. Whatever an artist intends by using myth and archetypes, what gets stimulated for me personally by a particular mythic theme, image, or symbol is also of tremendous personal value to me. Anyway, there may well be a deeper commentary on it that Zack is making. But I‘ll wait to delve into my speculations about that until after I’ve seen Part 1 and 2 extended cuts back to back.

This bickering is pointless.

Who cares if it was an "homage" or a "rip-off" or a completely original idea or scene for scene remake.....what a stupid thing to get hung up on and argue about for days.

Nothing can change the fact that it's just plain NOT a good movie.

I know there are two posters here that insist it is and it's the rest of the world that's wrong and that's why these arguments are taking such twisty and turny paths to avoid the obvious bottom line: it was a lousy movie.

It's so poorly made it's laughable. It's an embarrassment to everyone involved.

But at the end of the day...so what? It's just another in the long line of **** garbage spewed out by Hollywood in a never-ending production line churning out CONTENT. Content, content, content. "Just turn your brain off man, and sit and enjoy some fresh content for a while."

It would have been completely forgotten a week after it dropped if not for the two cheerleaders that refuse to let it go.

Otomofan said:

This bickering is pointless.

Who cares if it was an "homage" or a "rip-off" or a completely original idea or scene for scene remake.....what a stupid thing to get hung up on and argue about for days.

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The people doing the arguing obviously.

Otomofan said:

Nothing can change the fact that it's just plain NOT a good movie.

I know there are two posters here that insist it is and it's the rest of the world that's wrong and that's why these arguments are taking such twisty and turny paths to avoid the obvious bottom line: it was a lousy movie.

It's so poorly made it's laughable. It's an embarrassment to everyone involved.

But at the end of the day...so what? It's just another in the long line of **** garbage spewed out by Hollywood in a never-ending production line churning out CONTENT. Content, content, content. "Just turn your brain off man, and sit and enjoy some fresh content for a while."

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Luckily for us, we get to decide what is and isn't good.

Otomofan said:

It would have been completely forgotten a week after it dropped if not for the two cheerleaders that refuse to let it go.

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We certainly aren't arguing with ourselves.

Otomofan said:

This bickering is pointless.

Who cares if it was an "homage" or a "rip-off" or a completely original idea or scene for scene remake.....what a stupid thing to get hung up on and argue about for days.

Nothing can change the fact that it's just plain NOT a good movie.

I know there are two posters here that insist it is and it's the rest of the world that's wrong and that's why these arguments are taking such twisty and turny paths to avoid the obvious bottom line: it was a lousy movie.

It's so poorly made it's laughable. It's an embarrassment to everyone involved.

But at the end of the day...so what? It's just another in the long line of **** garbage spewed out by Hollywood in a never-ending production line churning out CONTENT. Content, content, content. "Just turn your brain off man, and sit and enjoy some fresh content for a while."

It would have been completely forgotten a week after it dropped if not for the two cheerleaders that refuse to let it go.

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It’s not “cheerleading” for me so much as I (and I assume @T8OO as well) legit like the film! I like the story I’ve seen thus far. I dig the characters. The acting has been fine. I’m enjoying the worldbuilding, mythology, lore, etc. I’m excited to get know the characters better and see that happens next. I’m having a grand time with it.

My appreciation is fundamentally different. I’m not stating this because I’m a member of a clan, tribe, or team, etc., that’s fighting another group with an opposing view. There are things that Zack Snyder has done in several of his movies that struck a deep chord inside: in particular (I base this on interviews he’s done) how he comments on genre evolution and is consciously using ideas that C.G. Jung and Joseph Campbell developed that are very meaningful to me. I don’t see other directors doing quite what he does. So yeah, I’m going to defend what he does! Of course!

You’re surely not suggesting that I silence myself because my opinion doesn’t align with the consensus? Or so that you all can enjoy an echo chamber of bashing the film in peace, lol?

Talk about the movie. Enjoy the movie. It's cool.

Stop with the nonsense about "Well....what's the difference between homage and plagiarism, really? Aren't ALL movies plagiarism?"

And who could forget such chestnuts as the back and forth about "Stop making blanket statements!"

If we're gonna argue, at least argue about interesting stuff like tentacle sex monsters and the colors of the sky and bone staff weapons.

Budo17 said:

I always assumed Star Wars New Hope was based on Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, with the comedic bickering duo and peasants ending up saving a princess.

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Yes Hidden Fortress with the finale of Dam Busters. To his credit *that* particular combo had certainly never been done before, lol.

Wor-Gar said:

I wonder where all this "Lucas stole from 7 Samurai" stuff came from? Disney?

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An episode of The Clone Wars was basically a direct rip-off of SS but that obviously came much later. And then post-Lucas there was that Scout Walker episode of Mando that was essentially "Two Samurai" so it has become a pretty tired "homage" even prior to Rebel Moon.

Otomofan said:

Talk about the movie. Enjoy the movie. It's cool.

Stop with the nonsense about "Well....what's the difference between homage and plagiarism, really? Aren't ALL movies plagiarism?"

And who could forget such chestnuts as the back and forth about "Stop making blanket statements!"

If we're gonna argue, at least argue about interesting stuff like tentacle sex monsters and the colors of the sky and bone staff weapons.

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Some folks are outright accusing Zack of plagiarism with Rebel Moon. He has said he is deliberately drawing from a broad variety of fantasy-adventure films that have struck a deep chord with him to realize a vision for an adventure he always wanted to tell. If nothing else it raises the question of where does one draw the line with derivation from inspirational sources. That’s directly related to the film!

I’m definitely going to keep commenting on what I see about that.

*Throws line in the lake
Those swords that lady had were a rip off of lightsabers

ironwez20 said:

*Throws line in the lake
Those swords that lady had were a rip off of lightsabers

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*Snags line
Rip off? I would say more of a homage...

To be fair Star Wars wasn't the first movie to feature laser guns and it doesn't get flack for doing so.

I came here just point out what I thought of the movie, but then I saw the "homage vs plagiarism" discussion.
Having said that, whatever they took or copied or whatever from other movies, should not influence the quality of a movie.
So, again, to me, the movie was bad. And considering the marketing and push it got, it sucks.

I know somehwere in the world there will be someone who likes it or even consider it epic. The success of the franchise will be reflected eventually, but I will not be bothered for part 2, unless I start hearing the contrary.

And one last thing, I watched the movie without any knowledge on anything from it. Actually kind of excited from all the merchandising and marketing it was getting. Waste of time.

ironwez20 said:

*Throws line in the lake
Those swords that lady had were a rip off of lightsabers

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Also the droid's voice was clearly stolen from Odin in the MCU.

Is this plagiarism?:

Watchmen: Each Character's Charlton Comics Inspiration, Explained

I want to take in the entire full length film experience of Part 1 and 2 extended cuts together before I dare to propose with confidence specifically what I think Snyder is likely commenting on by taking up a similar blueprint that George Lucas used (Star Wars sources and analogues - Wikipedia) of cobbling together a tale deliberately from a wide variety of film sources. Lucas was doing it… and I’m pretty confident in asserting this aspect… with the intention to create a mythos/story that would have very broad appeal with the cinema-going masses. And of course a movie that would find the sweet spot between something that feels innovative, fresh, and original but is clearly drawing heavily from source inspirations. (Lucas obviously succeeded!)

In the article I linked above it mentions just how powerfully Lucas was influenced by Joseph Campbell’s Hero With a Thousand Faces, i.e., his thesis on the collective unconscious, myth, archetype, and “the hero’s journey,” (scholarly term is “monomyth”). These unconscious forces, psychological processes, etc., produce what Jung conceived of as the collective unconscious. It’s a theoretical construct of course, but there is ample evidence to support the theory. But anyway, I mean, just watch Joseph Campbell comment on this subject himself in the PBS series from the 80s, “The Power of Myth.”* Campbell is all about the impersonal, transpersonal, and collective nature of myths and archetypes. And remember, Campbell was Lucas’ chief creative consultant for ANH! (Something it seems Campbell clearly took great pride in, and rightly so. Fun fact: Yoda is partially influenced by Campbell.)

Zack Snyder has said that he as well is hugely influenced by Joseph Campbell, and specifically Campbell’s concept of the monomyth. Snyder too is deeply fascinated by myth/archetype/monomyth and how to use it creatively as a filmmaker. So there’s a layer at which I’m sure Zack wants to do the same thing that Lucas did, while updating it from 1977.

But I’m already wondering if the commentary Zack is making might have to do with how a personal artistic vision of a director is fundamentally at odds with the economic and market forces that actually make the film production possible. I outlined a brief introduction to that idea here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/Y8aZdWxfCv

Another difference between Lucas’ is that Zack was a teenager to young adult coming of age during the 80s. And some of the pop culture movies that blew him away during those formative years were violent, gritty, and/or more sexualized movies like Heavy Metal, Conan the Barbarian, Blade Runner, Excalibur, Road Warrior, etc.; and he was similarly influenced as a young painter (he went to art school to be a painter first) by Frank Frazetta’s commercial work for book covers. He said that’s he always envisioned a Star Wars type film but in that grittier and more sexualized style.

Another major difference between Lucas’ Star Wars and Snyder’s Rebel Moon is that Zack has very explicitly and openly described himself as a “subversive” filmmaker. He basically has said he’s not out to soothe the viewer by giving them comfort food—or at least he is not doing strictly that in order to get approval, etc. He’s more interested in challenging the viewer to shift their perspective through what he’s doing. As part of that artistic project he wants the viewer to cipher out what he encodes, which makes the film a more interactive experience that way. For example, Zack has described putting over 100 Easter eggs into his masterful (yes, masterful) deconstruction of the superhero genre, BvS.

Oh what the heck… I will inch out out on a limb even now, I guess:

This may be a stretch… and if Zack says something to indicate he’s aiming for something very different I’ll happily concede that it’s off base, etc… But I have to wonder of the PG13 cut is maybe even intended to deliberately (and incredibly subversively!) illustrate that the heart and soul of what he wishes to do for this story is basically ripped out when it is edited for the same demographic that Lucas was making 1977 Star Wars for. Like basically that his true artistic vision can’t survive that surgery, lol.

I’ll be interested to see how this speculation holds up when we see the R-rated extended cut.

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