Budget Stark - Why do Hot Toys figures cost more now, than 5 years ago.

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I don't know how to buy direct from Hot Toys except through thier shop in HK which as you have said before you must order from 6 months in advance and collect in person which rules me and probably 99% of other buyers out, so retail are our only options and if you look at some retail outlets they are charging 100 to 150 more for a Peacemaker and thats £ sterling not $ dollars.

Fair enough I accept the secondary market is where the major mark up is bieng made but Hot Toys is still charging more for the same figure albeit about the same price and I still cannot see any reason why that should be except to make more money for the same product. Don't get me wrong, that's good business if you can get more money for the same product because it's a different color then great, making money is what it's all about in business, my only point was that there are some who could argue that thats bieng greedy but as I have said greedy and good business are often one and the same.

And I'm sorry I still can't see why the price per figure illistration I used is'nt a valid example? (I assume) so if you then charge more for some than others you increase the profit margin don't you? really sorry for my ignorance I can't see what i'm missing?



First and foremost, the unit cost per figure is NOT the same per run. Hot toys just didn't push a button and start painting Red Snappers orange. Tooling and process equipment is only designed to make so many units before it has to be replaced.

They don't just make one set of molds and use it to make 3 different versions of the same figure.

Companies like Hot toys have long term plans.

They probably determined the total estimated cost to manufacture all 3 versions - Red Snapper, Peacemaker and even South Paw.

Each figure will be about 60% identical but you have additional engineering for the different parts, the different styrofoam inserts and the different box art.

Once they know the estimated costs to do all 3 versions they can determine the price point based on the number of units they plan to release for each figure.

Versions with lower numbers will cost more. They can even work it backwards and charge less for Red Snapper (because he is a PP) knowing that they will be charging more for Peacemaker since he is an exclusive MMS.




Now for your other point, The way I understand it , SSC is the main distribution center for Hot Toys. So Hoys has to ship units to SSC and in turn they have to re-pack them and then ship them out to other retail sellers the BBTS.

So all of the other "retailers" have to add those costs to their price to compensate for the additional shipping and in some case the importation taxes and customs charges.
 
First and foremost, the unit cost per figure is NOT the same per run. Hot toys just didn't push a button and start painting Red Snappers orange. Tooling and process equipment is only designed to make so many units before it has to be replaced.

They don't just make one set of molds and use it to make 3 different versions of the same figure.

Companies like Hot toys have long term plans.

They probably determined the total estimated cost to manufacture all 3 versions - Red Snapper, Peacemaker and even South Paw.

Each figure will be about 60% identical but you have additional engineering for the different parts, the different styrofoam inserts and the different box art.

Once they know the estimated costs to do all 3 versions they can determine the price point based on the number of units they plan to release for each figure.

Versions with lower numbers will cost more. They can even work it backwards and charge less for Red Snapper (because he is a PP) knowing that they will be charging more for Peacemaker since he is an exclusive MMS.




Now for your other point, The way I understand it , SSC is the main distribution center for Hot Toys. So Hoys has to ship units to SSC and in turn they have to re-pack them and then ship them out to other retail sellers the BBTS.

So all of the other "retailers" have to add those costs to their price to compensate for the additional shipping and in some case the importation taxes and customs charges.

Boba Debt - good analysis, I agree with the breakdown you outlined. It seems you have a good knowledge of this sector.

I would not classify SSC as the secondary market as they are an official distributor, I concur with your classification of the secondary market of resellers and eBay. The simple fact is that territory variations occur which until some one like me or other HK collectors explained, overseas collectors did not know about.

For example - I am pretty sure, very few if any non HK collectors knew about the lottery system for exclusives in HK, none of the well known youtube reviewers knew about this lottery when I talked about it, I was even called a liar for saying this "lottery" exists.

In HK if you were lucky enough to win the lottery for the right to buy Peacemaker, it was a similiar price to Red Snapper. Whereas in USA/ SSC had the Peacemaker available to anyone who was fast enough with the mouse button.
 
Are you considering "Side Show Collectables" as part of the secondary market?

If so, they is not exactly how they would be classified in the US. In the US we would consider them to be a distributor which is a company that imports a product and then distributes it wholesale to other companies, a they are also a retailer because they sell direct to the consumer

To me and most other people in the US, the secondary market is comprised of Ebay and people who buy the figures at retail and then re-sell them.

Sideshow would be considered a wholesaler in the US. They are a quasi intermediary with retail shops and yet they also make profits from selling as a retailer.

They get to charge end to end retail price off of wholesale costs straight from Hot Toys and charge markups to the retail distributors.

The US distribution model looks like this.....

1) Hot Toys (Supplier) sells to Sideshow (Wholesale)
2) Sideshow (Distributor) sells to BBTS (Retailer)
3) Sideshow (Retailer) sells to Consumer
4) BBTS (Retailer) sells to Consumer
5) eBay/individuals (Secondary Market) sells to Consumer.

Sideshow is in a favorable position, they can control their profits to an extent through the wholesale and retail channels. A hot figure comes through they know will sell then they can hold back from retailers and sell through their website (Hot Rod). A cool selling figure (Bank Robber Joker. V2) comes along, then they have the option to dump it into the retail channel and still make good margins.
 
I'm new here, but I would like to add my 2 cents here if it helps.

I reside in an Asian country, and my first figure purchase of this scale and quality is Iron Man MK IV, followed by MK V; and I took a long break from figures collecting due to other priorities. Mainly because I was getting disillusioned with the pricing at that point in time due to importers bringing in figures instead of a distributor. I got back when I saw the pictures of DX 11 Joker and DX 12 Batman, and have never looked back since. In general, I collect figures of importance to me, be it my personal idols or movie heroes. Before that, I was into scale modelling and photography, with the intention of capturing completed figures in their painted, scaled glory.

One of the things most posters didn't talked about is the cost. Not the figures, but the business. Of course most toys/ scale modelling reuse molds, if possible to reduce potential upfront costs, new moldings, etc. In this case, it's usually the figures bodies, hands, legs, connectors etc. That's why sometimes you see uneven scaling of hands and legs. A mold is basically a cast iron in separated in male and female molds, which resin/ plastic is poured into for casting. Usually a master mold cost potentially 10 000 and upwards, and have a limit on its usage before the details start going, at which they have to replace it with another master mold. Of course, there are companies that don't do that, and that's when you start losing details. It's apparent on early days of Hasegawa, Fujimi and others, the later production loses details and merged details due to old molds.

That would explain why in general, Hot Toys have a limited production run, because running another Master Mold for another run is simply not worth the investment, after the initial waves of interests dies off; this is to keep the quality of the mold and of course the value of the figure intact. MAYBE in the early days they reused the mold till death, but this can only get you so far in terms of business sense when your competitors starts catching up and improving.

With the casting of the resins and plastics, you need the colours to bring the figures to life. Of course Hot Toys can go down this route, fix your own kit, just like Bandai, Tamiya, and various other plastics brands are doing, but it would reduce a lot more interests and investments. The skills needed to paint a figure, is down to the sculpter, who will be doing a initial run of headsculpts/ completed models for the factory workers to follow. These are called master kit, which is used as a reference point.

The factory workers would then take references from the master kit and do the rest of the painting, starting with the base colors, followed by layers and layers of skin toning, detailing, eyes, hairs, features (like Christian Bale's mole near the nose) before each undergoes a QC check and sealed up in paint sealant. These are extremely labour intensive work required to produce a life-like scale headsculpt. One thing to note is that these are "mass-produced' so quality MAY take a hit at times, which explains why the prototype seems so much better than the final product at times (Hot Toys Falcon comes to mind)

Let's pause here for a bit and rewind back.

To get to the final painting stage, the main sculptors (or A-Listers, if you prefer) would have to work on creating a sculpt/ figure first. These are referenced from materials provided by the studio, or even actors/actresses themselves. On top of paying the licenses and character's likeness usage. They probably went through a few versions before settling on one agreed by the studio/ actors/ actresses. These requires massive input in timing, coordination, and legal works. (Do you really think that Robert Downey Junior is going to sit in their studio all day waiting for them to perfect his likeness?) Thus the main sculptors have plenty of tasks on hand to get it right the first time or close to it to potentially reduce the amount of ding-dong.

And we come to the main sculptors issues, with all these responsibilities riding on them, they would of course try to get it right, or close to. Their reward is besides the passion and energy derived from completing their masterpiece, is also monetary. These are going to be appropriate to what they are doing. Hot Toys is going to do what they can to retain the talents, and invite new talents to their ensemble to further strengthen their position in this industry. Kinda like Apple vs the rest of the companies out there. I don't want to to assume, but they are probably paid big bucks to avoid being poached by other companies, bringing their specialized skills and trainings (yes, Hot Toys will still need to invest in training these people to further upgrade their skills) along to their rival companies. You need a strong foothold on your talents if you want to be the leader in the industry. Is it justified? Maybe not, but not so long ago we are having Ken-like figures that pass off as premium quality figures, or statues if you are looking for quality.

So, the main sculptors would take quite a chunk of the profits Hot Toys made, not because they deserved it (it's arguable, really) but we as consumers demand them to.

Back to the factory workers. These are not your A-listers, B-listers, but your everyday worker trying to provide a family (they are not really going to hire temporary workers for these kind of production, at least not until the end). Can you imagine sitting at your table doing repeated painting over and over again for 8 hours of your life everyday, smelling like paint and feeling like paint? Company like Hot Toys would pay attention to these group of workers, as they will be their main driving force for the eventual figures produced. If I, as the worker were to think that my career path are quite limited; I would think of leaving the company if the opportunity arises. This is ontop of the fact that most workers need some form of training even if they have a base in painting (heck, I can't hand paint decently a headsculpt yet despite spending almost 6 years on scale modelling hobby, though I'm mostly self-trained) and courses and upgrades classes to attend to continually upgrade their skills, and of course, career progression, hopefully moving towards the A-Listers if the talent is there. A company would be more willing to retain a skilled worker than re-training a new worker since its really a start from the bottom again.

Thus, the factory workers would again take a sizeable chunk of money, because of the need for continuous upgrading and retaining workers.

Then you have the materials, which is pretty much covered in a lot of other posts, but the costs do rises in the years, and a lot of costumes are intricate, which requires careful sourcing and proper templates to maximize the material usage. These are handled by a group of artisans who spend a lot of time on the drawing board making sure the templates are produced in the least amount of steps possible and still easy to be handled by the factory workers. An example, such as doing a pair pants isn't as easy, and I tried to get my mother (who used to be a seamtress) to adjust a pair of figure pants for me and she berated me for giving her such a insane task to fulfill. It's not about scaling down the item and using the same materials. To achieve the scaled look the thread count probably have to be increased to make it look "life-like" or weathered properly for it.

Finally, you have the packing, promotional materials and shipping logistics. Most these are probably outsourced, except for the packing since these still require a certain amount of QC before final packing for sale. All these requires another group of workers handling the calls, negotiations and also enquiry made by various distributors in the world. Doesn't seem a lot but they are probably the crucial factor in the whole chain since thats when the rest of the workforce gets paid once you get money rolling in.

You are free to think otherwise, but I'm just stating what I do see in scale modelling and I find that it applies largely the same to scaled figures industry. Most of us forget that not so long ago we accept barbie like details as the premium format and price in scale figures (initial Enterbay Bruce Lee, Hot Toys soldiers anyone?) It's not a simple click click, whiz bang and they get money rolling into their bank accounts.

Is the price reasonable? I hate to say it, but I would think yea, so long the quality of the figures keep improving and is there. Of course there are times Hot Toys does drop the balls once in a while (Winter Soldier Stealth Cap, MY GOD WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?) but in general the whole of the industry has moved forward because of us demands and their strive for perfection. Even Enterbay has start treating their figures production seriously. Smaller scale companies has also understand the need for better production value and we have seen an increase in quality in general across all ranges. (Storm Toys Mike Tyson, 3A Robocop) All these in the quest to be the next "BIG" company.

My only advice who are bemoaning the prices, don't place an order, no demands no pricing. It's really simple actually, distributors do tend to price their figures more expensive than Hot Toys since they need to make a profit as shipping logistics, license to sell is going to a huge factor for them. I'm not saying drop your support for your favorite company, but make a calculated decision before placing the order.

My only wish is that I can somehow live in Hong Kong and I can get some of the figures at a slightly better price than what I get here locally. But that is really wishful thinking. And it's late in the night over here, and I have a job tomorrow, and I'm not sure whether my points are coherent, I'm sorry if I can't get this any clearer.

TL : DR, Hot Toys priced this figures because they can, if you choose to ignore all the above stated points.
 
I've seen "tooling" mentioned a couple of times. What does that mean? Is it making the tools for the factory to produce the figure. I really don't know much about how these things are made.

It did make me think though if companies like Hasbro are spending $100,000 for tooling for each figure, might we see a day in the foreseeable when things are 3D printed to save on a lot of these costs? Once you have giant printers able to make hundreds at a time the only other cost would be ink.

"Tooling" is the machinery and molds to produce the individual parts that make a figure. This stuff has to be produced up front and customized for each new figure.

And 3D printing does not scale up that way. 3D printers are excellent at making small numbers of things, because the startup cost is very low- you just have to design it on a computer and print it, you don't have to produce a large infrastructure of molds and tools to mass produce parts. But the high startup costs of producing all the tooling and molds reduces per unit cost when you are making large numbers of things. Say it costs $10,000 to make the machinery to produce a figure. If you make one, that figure costs $10,000 to make, plus labor and materials. But if you make 10,000 figures, the cost of the machinery goes down to $1 a unit. Say the 3D printer costs $50 worth of materials to print, it will always cost $50 worth of materials to print. Time is also a factor, print #1 will take the same amount of time as print #101. It doesn't scale up. That's why 3D printers are good for making small numbers of things or better yet prototypes, as you can produce one of something to see if it works before investing in a large setup of machinery to produce mass quantities. Also there is quite a bit of finishing that goes into 3D printed items, a finished smooth part does not just pop out when its done, which adds to the fixed production time per unit printed.

This is a case study of laser cutting vs injection molding, it highlights a lot of the same things that 3D printing runs into vs traditional manufacturing, if you're interested:
https://www.supplybetter.com/blog/injection_molding_through_alibaba_case_study.html
 
I don't know how to buy direct from Hot Toys except through thier shop in HK which as you have said before you must order from 6 months in advance and collect in person which rules me and probably 99% of other buyers out, so retail are our only options and if you look at some retail outlets they are charging 100 to 150 more for a Peacemaker and thats £ sterling not $ dollars.

Fair enough I accept the secondary market is where the major mark up is bieng made but Hot Toys is still charging more for the same figure albeit about the same price and I still cannot see any reason why that should be except to make more money for the same product. Don't get me wrong, that's good business if you can get more money for the same product because it's a different color then great, making money is what it's all about in business, my only point was that there are some who could argue that thats bieng greedy but as I have said greedy and good business are often one and the same.

And I'm sorry I still can't see why the price per figure illistration I used is'nt a valid example? the unit cost per figure is the same per run (I assume) so if you then charge more for some than others you increase the profit margin don't you? really sorry for my ignorance I can't see what i'm missing?

Because you don't seem to understand the simple math.
They don't make 2000 units, and then use some as peacemaker and some as red snapper. They make the red snapper figure. Then make starboost. Then falcon. Then fix the molds(which is called tooling when it's done on an industrial scale which includes everything needed to use to make the molds and bits and injection and stamping parts for the machines) to make peacemaker. So even though they are nearly identical figures they are made as complete unique figures. Taking this in mind

If it cost 100,000 thousand dollars or pounds or ants or whatever currency you meant to call it to make the molds and the cost of licensing and raw materials (again molds are called tooling) for red snapper and 100,000 to either replace or fix the molds(tooling) and cost of licensing and raw materials....all before you make a single bloody figure...then to recoup that cost just to break even (not counting covering utility costs and paying employees and rent and taxes and insurance and health care and packaging and artist fees and sculptor fees and inventory storage space and quality control and a dozen other costs to keep the business actually operating let alone make a profit) if you make 1 red snapper you have to charge how much? 100k. If you make 2? 50k each. So say you make 1000 that means each figure costs what? 100(dollars or pounds or ants...what ever currency you choice for the first 100k number was).

So if the operating cost to make each figure is exactly the same, which if they are identical then the cost to produce is the same, and you make less of one (100k\units produced= cost per unit) then you have to charge a higher amount per unit (thus making peacemaker cost more then red snapper) if you produce more of one then the other.

Each figure is a unique item. Each figure has a unique license. Unique approval process. Even if it's a repaint. If you own to 2014 Ford Mustang Gt cars that are exactly the same but different colors can you use the same license plate/number tag on each because they are the same? No. (Not talking about comparing how the cars are produced as ford owns the mustang name and production rights, hot toys does not own iron man, it's a licensing agreement. Just making a point that each item no matter how similar needs a unique license)
 
Sideshow would be considered a wholesaler in the US. They are a quasi intermediary with retail shops and yet they also make profits from selling as a retailer.

They get to charge end to end retail price off of wholesale costs straight from Hot Toys and charge markups to the retail distributors.

The US distribution model looks like this.....

1) Hot Toys (Supplier) sells to Sideshow (Wholesale)
2) Sideshow (Distributor) sells to BBTS (Retailer)
3) Sideshow (Retailer) sells to Consumer
4) BBTS (Retailer) sells to Consumer
5) eBay/individuals (Secondary Market) sells to Consumer.

Sideshow is in a favorable position, they can control their profits to an extent through the wholesale and retail channels. A hot figure comes through they know will sell then they can hold back from retailers and sell through their website (Hot Rod). A cool selling figure (Bank Robber Joker. V2) comes along, then they have the option to dump it into the retail channel and still make good margins.

That's not entirely the case. Hot toys decides which figures sideshow can sell to other retail outlets and how many. The only figures sideshow can "hold" back is the sideshow exclusive. And sideshow makes a fee to be a distribution company based on numbers the sell to retailers they do not make more for one figure then they do another. They are essentially a hot toys warehouse and shipping company when working as a distribution company. For all the trouble they go through hot toys does the sideshow exclusive versions of a few figures for them. But sideshow in no way controls the flow of the figures and holds back hot products for them and passes on slow to the retailers. The numbers of each figure sent to each company are set in stone months (sometimes over a year) before the figure ever ships to anyone.

Also sideshow is not just the distribution company for hot toys in the USA, they are the distribution company for all of north and South America, most of Europe and half of Asia.
 
That's not entirely the case. Hot toys decides which figures sideshow can sell to other retail outlets and how many. The only figures sideshow can "hold" back is the sideshow exclusive. And sideshow makes a fee to be a distribution company based on numbers the sell to retailers they do not make more for one figure then they do another. They are essentially a hot toys warehouse and shipping company when working as a distribution company. For all the trouble they go through hot toys does the sideshow exclusive versions of a few figures for them. But sideshow in no way controls the flow of the figures and holds back hot products for them and passes on slow to the retailers. The numbers of each figure sent to each company are set in stone months (sometimes over a year) before the figure ever ships to anyone.

Also sideshow is not just the distribution company for hot toys in the USA, they are the distribution company for all of north and South America, most of Europe and half of Asia.


Nope no control what so ever. As ususal you are muscling the keyboard and not reading. I stated US specifically in my example.

No offense, but I am an International Finance Manger at a major Science distributor. (think tens of Billions in revenue.)
I am responsible for global distribution analytics on self-manufactured and distributed product profitability. What I wrote is exactly correct. Because we do the same thing with sourcing globally on Franchise and 3P products.

You are the definition of a know it all and don't realize how dumb the stuff you type reads.

Post on......
 

Nope no control what so ever. As ususal you are muscling the keyboard and not reading. I stated US specifically in my example.

No offense, but I am an International Finance Manger at a major Science distributor. (think tens of Billions in revenue.)
I am responsible for global distribution analytics on self-manufactured and distributed product profitability. What I wrote is exactly correct. Because we do the same thing with sourcing globally on 3P products.

You are the definition of a know it all and don't realize how dumb the stuff you type reads.

Post on......

Great, you work for a company that sells stuff for tens of billions. Whoa! I actually worked for sideshow and was involved in the negotiations between hot toys and sideshow to make them the largest distributor of hot toys products. So obviously your experience in an entirely different company that makes more money means you know more. But hey, your company makes tons of money so you must be correct!

And your photo is of big bad toy store. Which unless I missed something is not sideshow. What they charge for the product is not controlled by sideshow.
 
Great, you work for a company that sells stuff for tens of billions. Whoa! I actually worked for sideshow and was involved in the negotiations between hot toys and sideshow to make them the largest distributor of hot toys products. So obviously your experience in an entirely different company that makes more money means you know more. But hey, your company makes tons of money so you must be correct!

And your photo is of big bad toy store. Which unless I missed something is not sideshow. What they charge for the product is not controlled by sideshow.

Two comments:
1. If you don't understand why I posted that joker pic, you sir are ignorant and a lying fool. If sideshow had you anywhere near a bargaining table it would be to clean it.
2. Nobody knows you are a dog on the Internet.
 
Two comments:
1. If you don't understand why I posted that joker pic, you sir are ignorant and a lying fool. If sideshow had you anywhere near a bargaining table it would be to clean it.
2. Nobody knows you are a dog on the Internet.

So explain to me why you posted it. How on earth would I know what point your trying to make? Unless you actually use words. A screen grab of a retail website photo with no explanation isn't exactly the most obvious thing in the world. So, what point where you trying to illustrate?

Edit-and sure I've cleaned tables. Swept runways. Done all kinds of work. Tried my hand at many many jobs. Nothing wrong with cleaning as a job. And just because you spout out this over the top job title (which sounds like over compensating for some other short comings) and the fact that you work for a company that makes "billions" doesn't mean either is true any more then anything I say. But please, feel free to PROVE me wrong. I welcome it. Or prove yourself right. Even if you do exactly what you say, how would you know what another company does, for sure?
 
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Well I own Google so I don't trouble myself with the problems of peasants.


(disclaimer - I don't really own Google)
 
Well I own Google so I don't trouble myself with the problems of peasants.


(disclaimer - I don't really own Google)



You have potential, you have have potential, even hokietwo has potential....oh boy.

image.jpg
 
Just throwing some numbers around, I bought a War Machine Mk I around 4 years ago for £140. Now if you bought the latest Iron Man which would be the 43, those are selling for around £250 so that's an increase of around 78% over 4 years. Food for thought.

Of course there's things like inflation, cost of more expensive materials like diecast and therefore more R&D, increase costs for licensing etc.

You didn't mention that WM1 is plastic and Mk43 is diecast.


Toy is my life!
 
Two comments:
1. If you don't understand why I posted that joker pic, you sir are ignorant and a lying fool. If sideshow had you anywhere near a bargaining table it would be to clean it.
2. Nobody knows you are a dog on the Internet.

Still waiting on that explanation. I hope its not something like sideshow held the joker back that's why BBTS has it now. No way you could know that. BBTS can have items held in their own warehouse, returned stock, lost stock, or even buy second hand from other sources. Including joe collector.

If it's has something to do with the sideshow logo on the left... That's irreleavent.

Maybe it's something else. But like I said, until you actually explain what your point is I am unsure. I don't read minds, especially thru the internet.
 
I've just noticed that the wind has changed direction & clearly this must be the reason for price increases, you can't fight nature & expect to come out of it unscathed!!! It's going to cost you... :)
 
"Tooling" is the machinery and molds to produce the individual parts that make a figure. This stuff has to be produced up front and customized for each new figure.

And 3D printing does not scale up that way. 3D printers are excellent at making small numbers of things, because the startup cost is very low- you just have to design it on a computer and print it, you don't have to produce a large infrastructure of molds and tools to mass produce parts. But the high startup costs of producing all the tooling and molds reduces per unit cost when you are making large numbers of things. Say it costs $10,000 to make the machinery to produce a figure. If you make one, that figure costs $10,000 to make, plus labor and materials. But if you make 10,000 figures, the cost of the machinery goes down to $1 a unit. Say the 3D printer costs $50 worth of materials to print, it will always cost $50 worth of materials to print. Time is also a factor, print #1 will take the same amount of time as print #101. It doesn't scale up. That's why 3D printers are good for making small numbers of things or better yet prototypes, as you can produce one of something to see if it works before investing in a large setup of machinery to produce mass quantities. Also there is quite a bit of finishing that goes into 3D printed items, a finished smooth part does not just pop out when its done, which adds to the fixed production time per unit printed.

This is a case study of laser cutting vs injection molding, it highlights a lot of the same things that 3D printing runs into vs traditional manufacturing, if you're interested:
https://www.supplybetter.com/blog/injection_molding_through_alibaba_case_study.html

Thanks for the very informative post :clap
 
Two comments:
1. If you don't understand why I posted that joker pic, you sir are ignorant and a lying fool. If sideshow had you anywhere near a bargaining table it would be to clean it.
2. Nobody knows you are a dog on the Internet.

Sounds like you need more hugs in your life.
 
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