Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Khev]

All other issues aside -- and I have many concerning the Sequel Trilogy in terms of storytelling and character development -- this is the over-arching problem for me that dwarfs all else.

Han and Leia have a terrible marriage, lose their son and have him come back to murder his dad in front of his best friend? Luke Skywalker ends his days bitter and alone after experiencing failure and mass murder perpetrated by his nephew?

THIS is what Disney saw fit to grant our archetypal heroes in their old age? After all of their risk, sacrifice and daring?

Even Rogue One -- which I love -- was Star Wars meets Zero Dark Thirty, but at least their sacrifice meant something, dark as the story was.

Or did it? Because the First Order comes along and slaughters *billions* just 30 years later, handily wiping the floor with the previous era's "heroes".

It's a cynical and nasty treatment of what was once a mythic and escapist story of straight-up heroism.

Could it have been done any other way? I think...yes. But they decided to drag these characters through hell instead. It's off-brand, ultimately disappointing and off-putting.

I expect this from Game of Thrones, not Star Wars. Against the backdrop of my real, adult life it's a trivial thing, but from the standpoint of appreciating an artistic legacy, however flawed and plain silly it was -- it's a disappointment and a missed opportunity.

I once thought as you do but if Palpatine was really the instigator of the FO and cause for Ben Solo's turn then I consider that to be a valid post-ROTJ threat and not something that's the result of Han and Leia being bad parents or Luke a dejected loser. Han dying in battle against Palpatine's forces is some of the most well known "alternate lore" of the Saga so I don't think they were out of line to allow it to finally play out.

Same with Luke going into exile. I know that it will probably always rub some fans the wrong way and that nothing can change that fact but for me at least knowing that the dark power that drove Luke to exile also did the same for Obi-Wan and Yoda makes it easier to accept. Plus if you do allow for the PT and current official canon then the same midichlorians manipulated by Palpatine himself to conceive Anakin way back when could very well be inside Luke himself, and maybe him being an offspring of Anakin means he's even more susceptible (along with Ben Solo) to Palpatine's manipulations than other Jedi would be. So that's yet another potential checkbox in the "not his fault" column.

As long as TROS ends on a spectactular high note and Palpatine really *is* behind it all then I'm totally fine with things having gotten dark again before his particular brand of evil is eradicated once and for all.

 

[ZE_501]

I once thought as you do [...]

I will not turn, and you'll be forced to disagree with me.

[...] but if Palpatine was really the instigator of the FO and cause for Ben Solo's turn then I consider that to be a valid post-ROTJ threat and not something that's the result of Han and Leia being bad parents or Luke a dejected loser.

That's a matter of opinion and choosing your own interpretation of the narrative; as opposed to perhaps getting caught up in meta-critique, I'll totally give you that, even if I disagree.

However, my overall low opinion of the narrative approach and character development stands.

Han dying in battle against Palpatine's forces is some of the most well known "alternate lore" of the Saga so I don't think they were out of line to allow it to finally play out.

Not aware of it -- unless you mean Ford's original wish for Han to bite it in ROTJ?

Same with Luke going into exile.

I recall a road not taken where Luke went all Clint Eastwood and walked alone in the unknown following ROTJ. Between the combat fatigue and possible PTSD or just plain Mystic-Warrior-Loner trope, I could see that. But there's a distinction between exile and utter failure.

I know that it will probably always rub some fans the wrong way and that nothing can change that fact but for me at least knowing that the dark power that drove Luke to exile also did the same for Obi-Wan and Yoda makes it easier to accept.

I'll give you that, but I didn't see Yoda or Obi Wan as having completely given up. Between the 2 at least Obi Wan was playing Watchful Protector. Presumably.

Plus if you do allow for the PT and current official canon then the same midichlorians

No sir, I do not! -- but I'll hear you out.

[...] manipulated by Palpatine himself to conceive Anakin way back when could very well be inside Luke himself, and maybe him being an offspring of Anakin means he's even more susceptible (along with Ben Solo) to Palpatine's manipulations than other Jedi would be. So that's yet another potential checkbox in the "not his fault" column.

An interesting take, and one that gives more weight to Luke deciding to "Just say 'no'" to Palpatine when offered a sweet hit of that Dark Side.

As long as TROS ends on a spectactular high note and Palpatine really *is* behind it all then I'm totally fine with things having gotten dark again before his particular brand of evil is eradicated once and for all.

You could make it fit. And in so doing one could even gloss over or forget about films that one considers exceptionally bad like say, AOTC or TLJ.

But from a meta-perspective their treatment of what became mythic heroes will never sit well with me -- not that it matters to anyone's big picture -- including my own -- as long as we're talking about perspectives.

 

[Prime Clone]

I wonder at what age JJ was when his parents realized “Hmm, our son has a ***** for a nose.”

He’s obviously comfortable with it. He could afford the rhinoplasty.

 

[jedijim3002]

I still love Star Wars, but I'd rather it slowly disappear again, and no longer be mainstream and part of pop culture, than to be subject to awful horrid stories forcing political agendas and awareness into a new audience. NONE of that belongs in Star Wars. It was a modern fairy tale for all ages, kids and adults. The classic story of Good vs Evil, with heroes to look up to. I don't need to see fallen heroes, political messages about today's current affairs, forced gender awareness... I see that in real life everyday. I want to dream and see the hero save the day, and continue to be the person EVERY ONE should look up to. Who stumbles and falters but continues on in the face of adversity. Not someone, who like in reality, falters from the experience's of life as one ages and starts to give up.

This I think is the real issue that will date these movies horribly. The originals are classic stories and why they are still relevant today even if the effects and acting are criticized. They have a deeper meaning you can dig into psychologically. Even the PT with all its flaws has that classic good versus evil story.

The ST movies are more popcorn flicks that are built on the OT, banking on the success of those characters to push a new story with new characters that are not selling well based on the toy lines. That’s why they have to resurrect the old characters to legitimize the new ones. Instead of a “passing of the torch” moment for the new characters to stand on their own it’s more like they burned down the house with the old characters in it to say “well those guys are dead so these are the droids you are looking for.”


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[ajp4mgs]

Plus if you do allow for the PT and current official canon then the same midichlorians manipulated by Palpatine himself to conceive Anakin way back when could very well be inside Luke himself, and maybe him being an offspring of Anakin means he's even more susceptible (along with Ben Solo) to Palpatine's manipulations than other Jedi would be.

As I'm sure you know, what you're describing here is similar to how things were originally outlined for Episode 7 in George Lucas's ST treatment from 2013. Luke was always meant to go into exile, be despondent over his failure to prevent his new Jedi academy from being destroyed, struggle with the decisions he made in his life, but then ultimately realize that he needed to get back in the game. And the Dark Side thoughts/fears were a component of his introspection and despondency during the exile.

Here's an excerpt from one of the articles that goes into some depth about the George Lucas outline, and touches on Luke's inherited connection to the Dark Side (which Kylo would obviously have too):

"[Luke] always had this potential dark side within him, being that his father was Darth Vader," explained Lucasfilm executive creative director Doug Chiang of the character's arc in the early days of Episode VII. "So he is really struggling with that. He ended up secluding himself in this Jedi temple on a new planet, and he's just there meditating, reassessing his whole life. Gradually, over the arc of the movie, he rediscovers his vitality and comes back to himself."

The same article goes on to explain how after the art book came out for TLJ, Pablo Hidalgo (from the LFL Story Group that TaliBane loves so much ) confirmed that TLJ followed much of what was in that original Lucas outline/treatment with respect to the Luke aspects. The thing is, JJ went in a different direction for his Episode 7 (pushing Luke off completely), but the ST would end up closer to GL's Ep7 outline with TLJ. Here's another excerpt about that:

But Lucas' biggest contribution to The Last Jedi was the Luke/Rey story itself, which he'd originally planned for Episode VII, as confirmed by Lucasfilm Story Group member Pablo Hidalgo on Twitter (via Comicbook.com). The idea played out much like what we saw in Johnson's movie: Luke is down and out on a distant planet thirty years after the fall of the Empire. A new hope named Kira finds the old Jedi Master and they begin her training. We would have seen Luke struggling with his failure to stop the Jedi Killer (renamed "Kylo Ren") from destroying his Jedi Academy. (There's also a really intriguing concept mentioned in The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi that suggests that Luke would have been haunted by a Sith ghost during the movie.)

Full article link: https://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies...ucas-episode-vii-outline-became-the-last-jedi

It goes on to mention that even the new villain in the Lucas version (who became Kylo in the actual ST) would've been revealed to be Han and Leia's son. So, I think Lucasfilm would do themselves a great favor by releasing the full Lucas treatment after TROS has had its run in theaters. Fans should see how these movies evolved from it, and in a way that can't be dismissed as just LFL doing a CYA public relations effort.

The funny thing about all of this for me is that if you connect the dots with what Daisy Ridley once said about RJ scrapping JJ's Ep8 outline, and you see the connections of TLJ to the Lucas outline, it seems that RJ actually moved away from the JJ version in favor of something *closer* to the original Lucas version. Not that hard to believe considering RJ enrolled in USC Film School because he was inspired by . . . George Lucas. Oh, the irony of it all.

 

[ironwez20]

Psh no he didn’t. Rian Johnson didn’t know what the hell he was doing and the fact that anyone even thinks this was all planned out is hilarious. Also this ST has a lot of sand. So much sand it makes anakin cringe in disgust

 

[jye4ever]

As I'm sure you know, what you're describing here is similar to how things were originally outlined for Episode 7 in George Lucas's ST treatment from 2013. Luke was always meant to go into exile, be despondent over his failure to prevent his new Jedi academy from being destroyed, struggle with the decisions he made in his life, but then ultimately realize that he needed to get back in the game. And the Dark Side thoughts/fears were a component of his introspection and despondency during the exile.

Here's an excerpt from one of the articles that goes into some depth about the George Lucas outline, and touches on Luke's inherited connection to the Dark Side (which Kylo would obviously have too):



The same article goes on to explain how after the art book came out for TLJ, Pablo Hidalgo (from the LFL Story Group that TaliBane loves so much ) confirmed that TLJ followed much of what was in that original Lucas outline/treatment with respect to the Luke aspects. The thing is, JJ went in a different direction for his Episode 7 (pushing Luke off completely), but the ST would end up closer to GL's Ep7 outline with TLJ. Here's another excerpt about that:



Full article link: https://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies...ucas-episode-vii-outline-became-the-last-jedi

It goes on to mention that even the new villain in the Lucas version (who became Kylo in the actual ST) would've been revealed to be Han and Leia's son. So, I think Lucasfilm would do themselves a great favor by releasing the full Lucas treatment after TROS has had its run in theaters. Fans should see how these movies evolved from it, and in a way that can't be dismissed as just LFL doing a CYA public relations effort.

The funny thing about all of this for me is that if you connect the dots with what Daisy Ridley once said about RJ scrapping JJ's Ep8 outline, and you see the connections of TLJ to the Lucas outline, it seems that RJ actually moved away from the JJ version in favor of something *closer* to the original Lucas version. Not that hard to believe considering RJ enrolled in USC Film School because he was inspired by . . . George Lucas. Oh, the irony of it all.

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they’re making it up as they go along!

 

[ironwez20]

Trevorrow was credited as a co-writer but he didn't direct Fallen Kingdom. He did however speak out against the studio mandate that they make FK less disturbing than JW by having the dino's victims be only those working for or allied with the bad guys.

He stated that "undeserved death is the essence of horror" which is why Zara's death had such an impact in the original.

Wait what? What was so disturbing about the original? The hybrid Dino just ate people and went on a rampage. Dinosaurs eat people. Or atleast I think they would. No wonder the movie had zero tension whatsoever.

 

[ironwez20]

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they’re making it up as they go along!

U honestly believe everything was planned out. Snoke, palpatine, Rey and kylo. Finn? All this was planned? Why tf switch directors then and back to the original after the major TLJ **** up? Idk man lol this thread

 

[ajp4mgs]

U honestly believe everything was planned out. Snoke, palpatine, Rey and kylo. Finn? All this was planned? Why tf switch directors then and back to the original after the major TLJ **** up? Idk man lol this thread

Can I ask you something in all seriousness: do you think all of the references to Palpatine, his Contingency plan, and the other elements which may tie into TROS that have been showing up in multiple novels and comics for the last five years are all just coincidence? They've pretty much said all along that hints and clues are being put in those stories that will pertain to the ST movies.

And do you seriously believe that Colin Trevorrow was replaced by JJ for Episode IX because KK didn't have an ultimate direction she was insisting on that Trevorrow wasn't wanting to stick with?

 

[ironwez20]

Can I ask you something in all seriousness: do you think all of the references to Palpatine, his Contingency plan, and the other elements which may tie into TROS that have been showing up in multiple novels and comics for the last five years are all just coincidence? They've pretty much said all along that hints and clues are being put in those stories that will pertain to the ST movies.

And do you seriously believe that Colin Trevorrow was replaced by JJ for Episode IX because KK didn't have an ultimate direction she was insisting on that Trevorrow wasn't wanting to stick with?

Then why snoke? If palpatine was supposed to show up anyway why the hell do we need snoke. He’s basically the same damn guy but dressed in gold and bald. It just doesn’t make sense

 

[ajp4mgs]

Then why snoke? If palpatine was supposed to show up anyway why the hell do we need snoke. He’s basically the same damn guy but dressed in gold and bald. It just doesn’t make sense

If saving a Palpatine connection for a big reveal in the final episode was one of the goals, then they'd still need at least a "stand-in" main mastermind villain for Episodes 7 & 8. That was Snoke. And in some of the novels, some of Snoke's backstory is revealed about his knowledge of the old Empire, and how they used the Unknown Regions (where he comes from) to build on the Contingency plan of Palpatine.

Another key thing: a Snoke comic book series will be out one month prior to TROS hitting theaters. I think the Snoke connection will be built there and explained in the movie. We'll see.

 

[TaliBane]

Easy there Tali.....

I AM one of those SW nerds....well documented, financed and known to all who know me. For over to 40 years now , its been my passion.

The trouble is , with the popularity of the MCU and SW, we tend to believe we are now “mainstream”. We may be mainstream for this moment...but that will pass and liking SW, comics and figure collecting, will again be relegated to the fringe members of society, to be scoffed at and ridiculed. It happened before.....it will happen again. I wont kid myself that this trend will end , probably sooner rather then later. SW will never remain mainstream in comparison to societies real mainstream events like sports, pop music (whatever flavor is manifests in) or fast food.

This is one of the reasons it bothers me so much to hear people say they “give up” on SW after a bad film (in their opinions) like TLJ. This wonderful time we live in, with all this content, will come to a screeching halt if the backers feel the tides are turning.....content will get less and less financed, and therefore worse and worse quality, till its gone completely. Its happened before (I know I said that already. I want that to sink in)

So be loud, proud SW fan, tell people you love it , even if the new stuff is not you bag, continue to show you support for more content. Be critical, but not dismissive...

This SW nerd, will take in any content as long as it keeps coming.....good and bad.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Haha - yeah I don't think it was specifically directed at you. You triggered me!

But you have to remember we're coming off a year of vitriol aimed at SW fans, 95% of it undeserved (and yes, I acknowledge there are some SW fans who are indeed intolerant, misogynist etc. and made themselves known online with Tran and in other ways, and are pathetic in many different definitions of the word.)

The issue with "all content is good" is that we're in this era of branded movies getting made not because there's a story burning to be told, rather because there's an audience for more (and more and more,) and a brand that can be grown like real estate values can. MCU is totally different to SW in a way most seem to forget - there were no major Marvel movies in the past. This is Marvel's moment in the sun, to see them all on the big screen.

SW already had that moment and we also already had the "but the creator has a new story to tell!" and we all know how that worked out. Then SW sort of fades, but then the largest entertainment corp in the world adds the brand to its stable and rightly wants to exploit it. But with no real need to tell a story that fans have been burning for on the big screen (the way Marvel fans rightly have - dozens of comic stories just ripe for the big screen, updated to a 21st century lens) they do what comes natural - hire "fans" (I think it's only Donald Trump who hasn't declared themselves a major SW fan at this point) to basically retread the only trilogy that has worked.

So we got GirLuke Skywalker (soon to be officially) the no-parents farmboygirl from the desert planet who dreams of piloting a starfighter and saves a cute beepity-beep droid and heads off to stop the dark lord and his not-Death-Star-again with ObiWan Solo/Skywalker providing wisdom then dying. It's "what fans want" because it's the same thing over I suppose but I don't ascribe to the idea that sjhoudn't be dismissed. Because of what it is - something without a reason for being and without a pulse.

 

[TaliBane]

All other issues aside -- and I have many concerning the Sequel Trilogy in terms of storytelling and character development -- this is the over-arching problem for me that dwarfs all else.

Han and Leia have a terrible marriage, lose their son and have him come back to murder his dad in front of his best friend? Luke Skywalker ends his days bitter and alone after experiencing failure and mass murder perpetrated by his nephew?

THIS is what Disney saw fit to grant our archetypal heroes in their old age? After all of their risk, sacrifice and daring?

Even Rogue One -- which I love -- was Star Wars meets Zero Dark Thirty, but at least their sacrifice meant something, dark as the story was.

Or did it? Because the First Order comes along and slaughters *billions* just 30 years later, handily wiping the floor with the previous era's "heroes".

It's a cynical and nasty treatment of what was once a mythic and escapist story of straight-up heroism.

Could it have been done any other way? I think...yes. But they decided to drag these characters through hell instead. It's off-brand, ultimately disappointing and off-putting.

I expect this from Game of Thrones, not Star Wars. Against the backdrop of my real, adult life it's a trivial thing, but from the standpoint of appreciating an artistic legacy, however flawed and plain silly it was -- it's a disappointment and a missed opportunity.

And Loki2371 too.

 

[a-dev]

Yes I very much concur with that post. It's perhaps the main reason I cannot accept these sequel movies - this story they're telling is not what I wanted to happen for the OT heroes basically. It's the horrible alternate 1980s from Back to the Future II...except there's no time travel in Star Wars to undo it.

 

[TaliBane]

I once thought as you do but if Palpatine was really the instigator of the FO and cause for Ben Solo's turn then I consider that to be a valid post-ROTJ threat and not something that's the result of Han and Leia being bad parents or Luke a dejected loser. Han dying in battle against Palpatine's forces is some of the most well known "alternate lore" of the Saga so I don't think they were out of line to allow it to finally play out.
.

I honestly envy your ability to be "within the narrative." All I see is that they ran out of major OT characters to exploit for both fan service and functionality (title notwithstanding,) and they had no villains of note in the ST (one's now dead, the other who was a wuss all along turned into an even bigger wuss in TLJ,) so they cynically turned to the last major OT character left, who also happens to be a villain! As yet another desperately needed OT bone for the shapeless, gelatinous ST body.

But no, the fact our illustrious, creative Story Group had planted this seed all along makes the parasitic urge toward the OT oh-so-organic. The OT needs to become like that homeless guy in the Robot Chicken Tauntaun's belly - "Get your own story!"

 

[Sachiel]

It's so obvious. They ****ed up and are now going back to the Lucas well in the hopes of salvaging this thing and getting some fans back.

Same with Luke going into exile. I know that it will probably always rub some fans the wrong way and that nothing can change that fact but for me at least knowing that the dark power that drove Luke to exile also did the same for Obi-Wan and Yoda makes it easier to accept. Plus if you do allow for the PT and current official canon then the same midichlorians manipulated by Palpatine himself to conceive Anakin way back when could very well be inside Luke himself, and maybe him being an offspring of Anakin means he's even more susceptible (along with Ben Solo) to Palpatine's manipulations than other Jedi would be. So that's yet another potential checkbox in the "not his fault" column.

Even if I were to accept Luke drawing his lightsaber on his sleeping nephew and exiling himself, everything else (how he acts, his reasons for cutting himself off from the Force, that dumb scene with Yoda, apparently Luke didn't learn anything from his experiences in the OT, trolling Kylo Ben, dying of a broken heart ) is just so asinine. Don't get me started on the rest of that movie.

Yes I very much concur with that post. It's perhaps the main reason I cannot accept these sequel movies - this story they're telling is not what I wanted to happen for the OT heroes basically. It's the horrible alternate 1980s from Back to the Future II...except there's no time travel in Star Wars to undo it.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/World_between_worlds

 

[jye4ever]

It’s simple for me.

It’s a new SW movie tied to the OT era therefore i’m giving it my full attention and more importantly unequivocal benefit of the doubt.

No amount of cynicism and indifference will diminish me from anticipation.

 

[Sachiel]

 

[snoop101]

Perfect response.