New Spike? Okay, which one?

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Which Spike variant would you prefer?

  • William

    Votes: 9 22.5%
  • Randy

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • First Slayer (Boxer Rebellion)

    Votes: 12 30.0%
  • Nazi

    Votes: 11 27.5%

  • Total voters
    40
good point about the LOTR statue line, missing some no-brainer pieces, but we got Ugluk instead. Kinda has a Der kinderstod flavor to it. I know other issues were at work for the Lord of the rings line, and I am sure that some licensing mumbo-jumbo makes it hard for any company to really cater to the fans in the way they might like.
 
I think that either William or Boxer Rebellion Spike would look good next to Origin's Angel. If we combined those totals for William and BR Spike, it's a clear indication that people would love a "flashback" Spike!
 
This is just my opinion, but...

I think they made two major errors with the Buffy line, which they probably now recognize as errors given the different strategy they seem to be taking with the Angel line. The first is, they took a strategy of releasing new core characters sparingly with too many minor monsters and retreads in between. I assume they were trying to "stretch out" the life of the property. But what set Buffy apart is that it wasn't a "Monster-of-the-Week" show--fans love the core humans (and core vamps), and few tune in for the one-off monsters. Buffy is an ensemble show, and without being able to look forward to having the whole core cast interest in the line was never maximized. As a result, years later the line seems to be on the back burner and we still have no Tara, Dawn, or Anya.

The second big mistake was the hideous non-likeness of Willow and failure to make up for it with a new human Willow release. Again, a Buffy line without a passable Willow isn't going to be attractive to most Buffy collectors, because she's key. Sideshow should have at least given us a Dark Witch Willow with a neutral enough expression such that buyers could repaint her head and pop it on the old Willows for a good normal likeness. A DWW would've sold extremely well when you factor in such customizing potential too.

Fritz said:
I concede that Spike (and Buffy) are popular characters but both Subway Spike (3000 ES) and Vampire Spike (6000 ES) are still available. When I see that, it makes me nervous about this line. Although I probably shouldn't be since Brant said we have nothing to worry about.

The problem as I see it is that Sideshow has been running the Buffy line with false or incomplete assumptions like "Spike and Buffy sell so let's keep doing multiples," which is true only until you saturate the market and alienate fans of this ensemble cast show by not exciting them with the prospect of getting the whole core ensemble. The two figures you mention above, together with Vampire Buffy and PG Buffy, are proof of where Sideshow went wrong. No, Spike and Buffy aren't sure sellouts, even in smallish editions considering the characters' huge fanbase. Why?

Because you'll eventually saturate the market unless the variations are so extraordinarily good or unique that they're must-haves. Mediocre variations will not sell out. New core characters draw in more Buffy fans and expand the overall market.

Because good likenesses and attractive aesthetics matter--Subway Spike has an odd and ugly expression, and his and PG Buffy's exposed joints are ugly. Of course they're going to take forever to sell out. If Subway Spike had had an attractive expression and a coat, he'd have sold out almost immediately. If PG Buffy's coat were standard, she'd have sold out quickly. Even if the price were a few dollars more to cover the coats, it would've been worth it

Because attractive human likenesses of characters will usually sell better than vamp versions of the same characters. Again, Buffy isn't a show about monsters, it's a show about an ensemble cast of characters the fans relate to or wish they could relate to. An attractive human Spike will outsell a vamp Spike. A vamp Buffy is a one-off monster from a single episode, not even a legitimate core character, so despite the absolutely gorgeous sculpt it isn't going to sell briskly.

Because people want more core characters--why did Vamp Buff sell poorly compared to Vamp Drusilla and Vamp Darla? The latter two sold out so quickly that Sideshow clearly underestimated demand and should've made the edition sizes larger from the start, whereas the former has sold slowly and even the exclusive edition of Vamp Buffy is still in stock. The answer is simple: Vamp Buffy is a one-off monster, whereas Drusilla and Darla are new core villains on Buffy and Angel respectively. Lesson: don't underestimate the sales of new characters, especially if they're attractive females (like Tara, Dawn, and Anya, hint hint).

A good likeness of Tara, Dawn, or Anya (esp. in gorgeous OMWF outfits) would easily sell out an edition size similar to Vamp Darla's as quickly, even at a newer slightly higher price point, and entice more Buffy fans into the Buffy/Angel Sideshow offerings. There's every reason to do them and no legitiate reason not to.

Fritz said:
I hope you're right. But I take nothing for granted after the SSW LOTR Line ended without a Faramir (and Denethor) in any form with multiples of Aragorn produced. I'll tell you it was a relief to finally get Giles.

If Sideshow had clearly foreshadowed the fact that they'd be ending the LotR line without doing a Faramir, I think it's obvious that it would've had a negative effect on sales in the overall line. Now, imagine it had been an even more important character, and that they were much slower in new core releases and made many more multiples and minor creatures instead. That's basically what Sideshow did to Buffy when they made an ugly Willow and then kept releasing multiples and monsters-of-the-week instead of new core heroes or villains.

Given the fact that the first 3 Angel releases are 3 of the 6 or 7 core heroes and the likenesses are spot-on, I trust that Sideshow has been learning from its Buffy mistakes.

Alright, I'm now putting on my flame-proof suit and preparing to get scolded in disagreement. :D
 
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SergeiEsenin,
You have made some really compelling points (in all of your posts actually). I think that Sideshow is actually going along a similar line with Angel. I don't count the original Buffy/Gentleman as part of the on-going line, given how long it was before they released any other figures. Sideshow started with Buffy/Angel/Spike before moving on with other characters, and it could be the direction that they take with the Angel line, it may just be too soon to tell.

I really have to agree that the Willow likeness probably caused more harm than it originally seemed, given the new, lower numbers and Sideshow exclusivity for the Buffy/Angel stuff. The Faith likeness probably didn't help much either.
 
Well you won't get any flamming from me, as I agree with everything you've said.

Sideshow Spike isn't everything he aught to have been, and yes, I also belive if he had been as handsome as he had appeared in the show, then he would have sold a hell of a lot better then he did.

The same of course for Willow who is a very popular character, but who sold badly purly because she looked like some kind of mutant.

Make them attractive as their real life counterparts and people will but them.
 
If SSC wants to be smart with the Angel line, they'll make the other 6 basic Team Angel members (Doyle, Wes, Gunn, Fred, Spike and Illyria) and then call it a day. I don't think anything else will sell very well unfortunately.
 
Actually vamp Buffy has sold pretty well as have vamp and subway Spike. There are just more of them than the characters that have sold out.

I think the quick release of core Angel characters is actually a BAD sign. Perhaps they see that there's not much life in the line and are just getting out some essentials before ending it.

I would agree that not having a decent Willow has hurt the line though. I would say that many of the other characters would sell better if they had a superior Willow to go with them.
 
Darklord Dave said:
I think the quick release of core Angel characters is actually a BAD sign. Perhaps they see that there's not much life in the line and are just getting out some essentials before ending it.
In my personal opinion, there's not much life in the line. Angel was never the pop culture hit that Buffy was and I don't think people have as a strong of a connection to those characters. I'm a much bigger fan of Angel than Buffy and would love to see the line go on for years, but looking at it realistically the show just didn't connect the way Buffy did and I don't think the demand is nearly as strong.
 
Buffy may have had better numbers, but I think Angel could have more diversity going for it as a toy line, and I hope it has legs. I hope the next Angel character announced is a nastie that looks cool, hmmm...how about Skip! or Sebassis!

Season two of Buffy was great for it's use of the classic monster motifs, and each season had it's share of memorable monsters. I would feel bummed if we didn't get each season's big bad by the time Sideshow decides to hang it up for either line!
 
Darklord Dave said:
Actually vamp Buffy has sold pretty well as have vamp and subway Spike. There are just more of them than the characters that have sold out.

It's true that the editions are larger, but you'd expect that a gorgeous sculpt like Vamp Buffy with a great exclusive like the tombstone would at least sell out the exclusive of 750 quickly--but there are still a few in stock many moons later, whereas the situation is very different for Vamp Dru and Vamp Darla. The exclusives of 500 each sold out practically overnight despite the exclusive accessories being much less interesting. Vamp Dru's regular edition of 2000 (Vamp Buff's is 4000) was sold out fairly quickly, and Vamp Darla's regular edition of 750 was gone practically overnight just like the exclusive. Clearly demand was overestimated for Vamp Buffy but hugely underestimated for Vamp Drusilla and Vamp Darla.

This despite the fact that Buff's a beautiful Oluf sculpt with a big exclusive accessory, and Darla's a mediocre sculpt of an ugly look. I think the biggest factor affecting sales of the 3 recent vamp girls isn't edition size--Dru and Darla sold out so quickly that they could've sold many more, and demand is still there strongly as eBay prices show. I think the biggest factor is that Dru and Darla are core villains in the Buffyverse and demand was beyond Sideshow's expectations, whereas Vamp Buffy is just another Monster-of-the-Week and demand was below espectations.

Of course it can't be a straightforward apples-to-apples comparison because of the different edition sizes. But Sideshow chose lower edition sizes for Dru and Darla, which clearly underestimated demand given the fast sellouts. Anyway, those are just my conclusions from the available data. I could be offbase.

As for Subway Spike, I'm sure he's sold quite well--but I think if he'd had an attractive expression and covered joints, he'd most likely have sold out and become a good substitute for those expensive original human Spikes. The fact that people (not just completists or SS collectors, but general Buffy fans too) would rather spend 3x to 10x the price on a used but attractive human-faced Spike than on a brand new Subway Spike does say something.

Darklord Dave said:
I think the quick release of core Angel characters is actually a BAD sign. Perhaps they see that there's not much life in the line and are just getting out some essentials before ending it.

For me personally, I'd rather have the core characters made quickly and the line ended, than be strung along in uncertainty about core characters and risk the line ending before we get them all. We've had enough of that with the Buffy line. Which isn't to say I don't want lesser characters, or that a line has to end once the core is made. Buffyverse characters are especially suited to multiple releases since there's so much character and appearance development--once the core characters are made, there's still room for more good variations. Fred/Illyria; mature S4/S5 Wes and funny Rogue Demon Hunter Wesley with a pink helmet; You're Welome Cordelia and long-haired Buffy/early-Angel Cordelia; human Darla/vamp Darla; not to mention multiple vamp and human releases of Angel and Spike.

Multiples and new lesser characters can keep the line going strong even after the core characters are out there. We Buffyverse fans buy a lot of merchandise; we just want to know we won't be left hanging with an incomplete cast. Again, that's just my take on the situation, and I do respect and understand differing viewpoints. :)

Seaward said:
Buffy may have had better numbers, but I think Angel could have more diversity going for it as a toy line, and I hope it has legs. I hope the next Angel character announced is a nastie that looks cool, hmmm...how about Skip! or Sebassis!

Season two of Buffy was great for it's use of the classic monster motifs, and each season had it's share of memorable monsters. I would feel bummed if we didn't get each season's big bad by the time Sideshow decides to hang it up for either line!

While the only unmade ones I absolutely don't want to go without are Tara, Dawn, and Anya, I fully agree that more Big Bads would be great...

The Beast (Angel S4)
Ubervamp (Buffy S7)
Vocah (Angel S1)
The Mayor {Buffy S3)
Dark Witch Willow (Buffy S6)
Archduke Sebassis--and minion (Angel S5)
Adam (Buffy S4--might be too difficult)
Skip (Angel multi seasons--might be too difficult)
Glory (Buffy S5--in robes from The Gift to hide joints)
 
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SergeiEsenin said:
It's true that the editions are larger, but you'd expect that a gorgeous sculpt like Vamp Buffy with a great exclusive like the tombstone would at least sell out the exclusive of 750 quickly--but there are still a few in stock many moons later, whereas the situation is very different for Vamp Dru and Vamp Darla. The exclusives of 500 each sold out practically overnight despite the exclusive accessories being much less interesting. Vamp Dru's regular edition of 2000 (Vamp Buff's is 4000) was sold out fairly quickly, and Vamp Darla's regular edition of 750 was gone practically overnight just like the exclusive. Clearly demand was overestimated for Vamp Buffy but hugely underestimated for Vamp Drusilla and Vamp Darla.
(Buffy S5--in robes from The Gift to hide joints)


I hate to argue one of your points, however, Darla didn't sell out overnight. The two exclusives hung around a decent amount of time. Heck, I had time to order one color... think about it... then cancel and order the other... then turn around and cancel the second. These were not rash decisions. I debated it for a week or 2. Plus, many MIMB collectors bought one of each Darla to satisfy that evil completist beast within, so many doubles went to collectors.

Dru may have sold out at Sideshow. However, she is easily available online close to/ or under Sideshow's original price.

Another Buffy would sale. However, outside of a Season 7 Buffy, I don't really want one. And another "well-sculpted" Spike would also sell. It's no coincidence that they made Spike in 1/4 before Angel.
 
Forgot to mention:

I voted for Boxer Rebellion Spike. While William would be nice, I am a realist. William WOULD NOT SELL outside of our little hardcore group. Its not the pop-cultural image of Spike that everyone knows. True, the others aren't either. However, Randy could be easily customized into a human modern Spike, so that would move him. Nazi Spike and Boxer Rebellion would sell because they emphasize the evil nature of Spike BIC (Before Initiative Chip :lol ).

The thing I always loved about Spike's origin is that it connected him to the 15-30 age group demographic that made him so popular. He went from being a simple Billie Idol caricature (Marsters ACTING made Spike cool in his early appearances on Buffy.. not the Idol/ trenchcoat motiff.. the character was a disposible monster of the week that Marsters elevated above that due to his sheer strength of charisma and acting ability) to being a .. well, as stupid as it sounds, a human being. The majority of us "geeks" can related to not fitting in. Having someone we care for/love reject us for being different. In today's society, many of us can also relate to his horrible home life with his mother. So, when Spike is turned, the evil in him brings out all his inner desires to be "in" ... to be the one kicking arse/ the one others look up to, rather than the shy, school boy who couldn't talk to a girl. I believe it's the same reason he chose the Billy Idol look in the 70's... it was super-popular and his inner desire needed to feel popular and "bad-a$$".

Well, after that long treatise, if you identified with Spike due to his transformation from Geek to Uber-cool fighting machine, which would you want: a repesentation of his evil/cool self, or that nerdy bookworm? The hardcore among us would say Nerd or both. Casual buyers would not say fighting machine. And the casual collectors outweigh our checking accounts.
 
I wouldn't care how many incarnations of Spike were produced, i'd buy all of them, 2 each if allowed,......all I would ask is that EACH ONE BE A NEW SCULPT, WITH A NEW EXPRESSION!!!!!

There, I've had my say.....and I voted for William, because of Liam, but the Boxer Rebellion would be sweet too!:D :D :D :D :D
 
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