Is there such a thing as free will?

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There wouldn't even be a scientific method if our consciousness was not volitional. We would be conscious of the facts of reality automatically, with no need to validate our knowledge. It would be infallible.

What your scientists have discovered is that the subconscious is active in the decision making process. They have found brain activity which temporally precedes whatever activity they have designated as the 'top layer choice'. But brain activity is not conscious. It's electro-chemical, and deterministic---the opposite of choosing. If the conscious mind isn't making choices, the subconscious isn't either. If there is no choice involved in the process of human consciousness, then there is no power to deviate from sensory stimuli and no way of employing a critical method of validation.

Determinism, or science. You may have your cake, or you may eat it, but you may not do both.
 
There wouldn't even be a scientific method if our consciousness was not volitional. We would be conscious of the facts of reality automatically, with no need to validate our knowledge. It would be infallible.

What your scientists have discovered is that the subconscious is active in the decision making process. They have found brain activity which temporally precedes whatever activity they have designated as the 'top layer choice'. But brain activity is not conscious. It's electro-chemical, and deterministic---the opposite of choosing. If the conscious mind isn't making choices, the subconscious isn't either. If there is no choice involved in the process of human consciousness, then there is no power to deviate from sensory stimuli and no way of employing a critical method of validation.

Determinism, or science. You may have your cake, or you may eat it, but you may not do both.

See, and that may very well be the case. Scientists are NOT saying that they have "the answer". All they are saying is that the conscious mind is most likely not it. They are not saying that that necessarily means the subconscious mind IS it, though.

As for the notion that free will is a prerequisite for doing science / thinking critically etc, that is not the case at all. As I said previously, facts are facts independently of whether or not we discover them, can think about them or can understand them (the physics text book). Because you and I can question whether we have free will is not an a priori proof that we have it. That's just a circular argument. "We have free will, therefore we can think about whether we have it." Or, restating the same exact claim "If we didn't have free will, we couldn't think about whether we had it or not." The refutation to that is obvious: "Why not?...If we are fated (by circumstances of the universe) to be thinking about free will in this moment, and nothing has happened to stimulate us to think of something else right now...why would we NOT be thinking of free will?"

Also, determinism and the ability to do science are not mutually exclusive. Remember, science is not "perfect" it's a lot of trial and error. Living in a deterministic universe does not automatically mean that the science that intelligent beings (or beings that operate under the illusion that they are intelligent) do will always provide a perfect mesh with reality. Sure, we can do science, and it is most practical to operate our day-to-day lives as if everything we do is under our control and not a reaction (the only possible reaction) to the combination of every event that preceded it since the beginning of time.

The alternative is quite scary (to me at least)...All of the universe, all matter and energy (and whatever else is out there) is simply a collection of an unfathomable amount of particles bouncing off of each other and reacting to each other according to the laws of physics (plenty of which we may never fully understand). To take it to it's full conclusion, if free will doesn't exist, well then you or I or anyone doesn't really exist either. I'm not talking about our physical bodies or brains of course (just another sub-collection of all the particles of the universe) but our minds, or for lack of a better word, our "souls".

If the universe and everything in it is purely physical, then everything is governed by physics. If that's the case, it's free will does not exist because it cannot exist. Even allowing for quantum fluctuations does not allow us to re-enter free will into the equation because we do not have any control over those quantum fluctuations that may change the outcome of an event. Then free will is an illusion, but if we don't really exist independently of the physical particles that make us up, then who exactly is experiencing (being tricked by) the illusion?
 
You mean reading/seeing, unless you guys called each other up, in which case, let me in on that.
 
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Bah! "Free will" and "fate" are made up words from long, long ago, (and so is "sin") back when leading scientists thought the sun revolved around the earth and religious people decided to turn that into dogma. Superstitious people have attributed supernatural meanings to the words while poets use them to add color to the mundane. Trying to think about them, or even less productively, argue with someone over them, is like contemplating: who would win in a race, Superman or the Flash. The way the mind works is still being studied and any useful information on the mind should come from the fields of science. Sometimes things FEEL preordained, sometimes things FEEL destined. But that's like deja vu. Enjoy the feeling but don't waste your one and only life spending a lot of time thinking about it.
 
The question of whether or not we have free will is only a question because there are people who have a vested interest in denying it. On a personal level, they deny it to evade responsibility for their actions. On a social level, they deny it in order to control people. You can sit on the agnostic fence all you like, but philosophic ideas will still be the prime movers of human history, and as belief in free will diminishes, so do people's belief in their ability to control their own fates. There is never a shortage of people looking to step into the role for those who have abdicated their personal sovereignty, so whenever new rulers assume power, you can be sure they're thanking those who never bothered to give a ****.
 
The question of whether or not we have free will is only a question because there are people who have a vested interest in denying it. On a personal level, they deny it to evade responsibility for their actions. On a social level, they deny it in order to control people. You can sit on the agnostic fence all you like, but philosophic ideas will still be the prime movers of human history, and as belief in free will diminishes, so do people's belief in their ability to control their own fates. There is never a shortage of people looking to step into the role for those who have abdicated their personal sovereignty, so whenever new rulers assume power, you can be sure they're thanking those who never bothered to give a ****.

A lot of solid ideas in there. YES, there are always people seeing to control/take advantage of the easily swayed. But correlation does not automatically equal causality. In other words, the controlling of other people is not the ONLY motivation possible for sharing a philosophy with someone else. Because the topic happens to be free will, it's too easy to dismiss those that take the position that it most likely doesn't exist as "they want you to believe that because they want to control you!"....How about "they want you to consider it, because they believe it's very likely the case"?

Even if you will never trust the motivations of someone else promoting an idea (you can't ever really know their true intentions anyway, so you'd have to distrust the motivation of everyone, even those who agree with you)...you can't KNOW whether they are promoting it for good or bad intentions....or maybe even neither. Maybe they just believe it is true. Whether the truth hurts or comforts, neither is a reason to dismiss it.

As for denying the existence of free will just as an excuse to evade personal responsibility, I've already addressed that. Responsibility and consequences for one's actions absolutely can exist in a deterministic universe.
 
Uh huh. :rolleyes:

I'm not basing my belief on the motivations of others. I'm illustrating to gbd why an answer to the question is important.

Not agreeing /= not listening.

You're right. Not listening just means that every I say is being either ignored or misunderstood due to insufficient attention paid.
 
Uh huh. :rolleyes:

I'm not basing my belief on the motivations of others. I'm illustrating to gbd why an answer to the question is important.



You're right. Not listening just means that every I say is being either ignored or misunderstood due to insufficient attention paid.

Only two options when someone disagrees with you huh?

"My position is RIGHT! So it must be that they're ignoring what I'm saying...or they're just not paying enough attention to understand it!"
 
I'll ask you the same thing I asked the Reverend: why is induction not a part of the scientific method as far as you're concerned?

There are certain facts inherent in every instance of human awareness of reality.

1) Existence: there is something of which I am aware.

2) Identity: everything I am aware of is something with a specific nature.

3) Consciousness: I am aware of existence.

4) Sense Perception: my senses are my consciousness's connection to existence.

5) Volition: I am the one who is conscious. I. Not another. I cannot control what I am conscious of but I can control whether or not I am conscious of it. I can choose to focus my attention, or allow my attention to drift with no initiative, or I can actively evade knowledge.

You are supposing that simply because these facts are inherent within all of our experiences that they are not necessarily true. We are not omniscient and therefore may not draw any hard conclusions generalizing our experience. You rely on every one of these facts to deny any given one of them, yet you insist that some observation somewhere down the line could contradict them.

Your argument is false on it's face. Like David Hume sitting at his desk, introspecting in search of his self, conclusing, "I cannot find the self anywhere in my consciousness." It's nonsense. I have explained why repeatedly. If you aren't there yet, I don't know what else to blame it on. At least I'm giving you credit for being able to understand. I could have just said, "You don't get it." How about a little gratitude that I'm not patronizing you?
 
Induction / Inductive reasoning absolutely can be used the scientific method. In daily life, we constanly come to "conclusions" (in quotes because they're not really definitive conclusions) because life would be impractical without these constant, almost automatic leaps of faith. We don't know for certain that the food we purchase at a restaurant isn't poisoned, but we eat it anyway. It would be extremely impractical (not to mention paranoid) to test every bite before we consume it to have certainty that it was safe. But based on our past experience, and our need to save time and get on with our lives, the most practical solution is the make the very reasonable assumption that the food is fine.

So yes, I grant that induction is necessary for the practicality of life. Just as I absolutely believe that living one's life under the belief / assumption that we are the masters of our own destinies is the probably the only reasonable and practical way to be functional without becoming frozen in the questioning of it all.

You can start with the premise "conscioness/free will exists" under induction(because it makes life practical to believe that) but you absolutely cannot come up with an experiment to test that statement. Of course Hume couldn't find his self, he started with the assumption that something was there to find.

What if he just started without a pre-concieved notion -- just with a completely open and unbiased mind with the aim of "let me just explore and see what I find to be true". Of course, as humans, I realize that this is very difficult/impossible, especially when the subject we are investigating is ourselves. I think, if we recognize our own bias though, we'll see that we're giving ourselves a lot of credit for no tangible reason other than it is what "seems" to be the case to our already biased minds. We'll "conclude" that free will must exist before we even start. It makes the entire questioning of whether we have it a farce---our "minds" are already made up. Anything we find that contradicts (or simply doesn't directly support that) must be dismissed because it doesn't jive with what we started with. The truism that the observer alters the outcome is probably no more true that when the observer is trying to observe himself.

My OPINION here: The free will question can't be solved by thinking about it. Philosophy/logic is great for very many things...up to a point. Pure science (exploring without any bias/expectation of what we "should" find) may be impossible, so I am absolutely NOT saying that I believe that will definitively find the answer at some point in the future either. I do believe that absolutely unbiased thinking/experiementing is the ideal though--even if it is something that is impossible for us as humans to do. And I do believe we should at least recognize when we are starting our thinking with a bias, even if we are powerless to completely remove it.
 
A couple of news stories from the past couple days:

Man throws three year old son off roof then jumps. (All because of a custody battle)

Man shoots infant


I guess the Devil made them do it?
 
I'll be happy to address your post in detail later darkMagic, but for now I'll leave it at Hume: he couldn't find the self when introspecting because his self is what was doing the introspection.

It takes a leap of faith to reach that conclusion? :dunno
 
A couple of news stories from the past couple days:

Man throws three year old son off roof then jumps. (All because of a custody battle)

Man shoots infant


I guess the Devil made them do it?

We have no control over our emotions, don't you know? The subconscious says shoot, we shoot. Otherwise, we'd have free will and the scientific clergy hasn't decided that yet.
 
This thread..........ROFL

Of course we have free will over our day to day actions. Some people are always searching for a different or deeper meaning to EVERYTHING. They feel that if they can just search deep enough they will discover the big answer to the question everyone asks at some point in their life...."why".

Trying to be super intellectual doesn't make you right.
 
A couple of news stories from the past couple days:

Man throws three year old son off roof then jumps. (All because of a custody battle)

Man shoots infant


I guess the Devil made them do it?

Believe it or not, the first one happened in the building where a coworker of mine lives. Sickening story. Humans are capable of great evil (and great good). I know you are being sarcastic with the Devil comment, but I just want to make clear that from my point of view the argument against the existence of free will as it is commonly interpreted is NOT an excuse for not having personal responsibility and consequences for one's actions.
 
This thread..........ROFL

Of course we have free will over our day to day actions. Some people are always searching for a different or deeper meaning to EVERYTHING. They feel that if they can just search deep enough they will discover the big answer to the question everyone asks at some point in their life...."why".

Trying to be super intellectual doesn't make you right.

I don't even know what that means. I know that I'm not looking for any big 'why's. The purpose of my existence is for me to decide; it's not an act of inquiry, it's an act of creation.

I do understand that some people make simple things far too complicated.
 
I don't even know what that means. I know that I'm not looking for any big 'why's. The purpose of my existence is for me to decide; it's not an act of inquiry, it's an act of creation.

I do understand that some people make simple things far too complicated.

The part you understand is exactly my point.
 
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