Is there such a thing as free will?

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There is no soul prior to birth. Humans have free will.

I think we're done here.

Where is the proof that we have free will? Where is the proof that consciousness originates from matter, and that there is no soul?

That we have free will and that there is no soul is just as unproven as us having a free will and us having a soul.
 
That we have free will is obvious to anyone who can honestly introspect. That we are conscious in a material universe is just as self-evident.

So, no. Evidence of both my claims is staring anyone in the face every time they open their eyes. Evidence of your entire argument is available absolutely nowhere.
 
That we have free will is obvious to anyone who can honestly introspect. That we are conscious in a material universe is just as self-evident.

So, no. Evidence of both my claims is staring anyone in the face every time they open their eyes. Evidence of your entire argument is available absolutely nowhere.
Introspection could just be part of physical programming, if you believe that you have real free will in introspection. For example the idea of free will could just be part of the program of physical matter that created consciousness, according to you.
The source of our consciousness in a material universe is not self evident.
 
That's an evasion. You're speculating that what's right in front of you is not what it seems with zero evidence to suggest that it isn't.
 
You take the same poetry class as fosing?

No, I just think that when discussing most things in a purely philosophical sense, there are a lot of other things that do not enter the "equation".
So what looks great in the classroom doesn't always go down so well in the street. This is my experience anyway.
 
That we have free will is obvious to anyone who can honestly introspect. That we are conscious in a material universe is just as self-evident.

So, no. Evidence of both my claims is staring anyone in the face every time they open their eyes. Evidence of your entire argument is available absolutely nowhere.

You can't rely on only what is "obvious" to conclude that we have free will. There have been studies done that show that when faced with a choice, the moment we are conscious of our own decision happens several milliseconds after our brain is already sending the first commands to the muscles that will twitch to execute the decision. Essentially, the decision was made (by some automatic process? by some quantum chance?) before you even knew what you were going to do. It was decided well before "you" (your consciousness, your "free will") thinks it was decided. It seems that free will is just the illusion "top layer of paint" that is applied at the last step...long after the decision is made on a deeper level and is already in motion.

Relying on what you perceive to be true about the universe, using only what is immediately evident to your senses and brain will give you provably inaccurate picture of reality. Lab studies have shown that people consistently perceive stimuli applied to their hands as happening before stimuli applied directly to their brains....when both stimuli are applied at the same instant...and even when the stimuli is purposely applied to their hands a fraction of a second later than the one to their brain. In fact, everything you experience about the "material universe" didn't happen quite when you think it did...it's automatically ancd constantly being backdated by your brain. Look at your hands while you snap your fingers. What you see, that sound you hear, that feeling of the slap of your finger on the flesh, that all happened a fraction of a second before you believe it did. We are experiencing the entire "riiiiight now" universe about 150 milliseconds after everything actually happens. Combined with the fact that there is a process deep in our brains making decisions before we even know what the decision is...and...life is more like a watching movie than a playing a game.

Everything you can think of to "prove" or "demostrate" that free will exists immediately fails the cause-and-effect test.

"Look at this wild and crazy/spontaneous thing I am doing! There's no logical reason for it! No cause for this effect! Therefore it must be something "I" used my consciousness to decide to do with my free will! Proof!"

Of course, this only proves a reaction to the futile challenge of proving you have free will (the cause of the effect).
 
muscle memory! :lecture but who made the decision before muscle memory? :horror

we have our view of free will now but 50, 100, 1000 yrs from now, our view and/or the next generation, more likely are not the same. relative, I suppose.
 
You are all free to do my will!

SWEAR TO ME!

motherfather!!!!

tattoo_c7bdce_2010335.jpg
 
You can't rely on only what is "obvious" to conclude that we have free will. There have been studies done that show that when faced with a choice, the moment we are conscious of our own decision happens several milliseconds after our brain is already sending the first commands to the muscles that will twitch to execute the decision. Essentially, the decision was made (by some automatic process? by some quantum chance?) before you even knew what you were going to do. It was decided well before "you" (your consciousness, your "free will") thinks it was decided. It seems that free will is just the illusion "top layer of paint" that is applied at the last step...long after the decision is made on a deeper level and is already in motion.

Relying on what you perceive to be true about the universe, using only what is immediately evident to your senses and brain will give you provably inaccurate picture of reality. Lab studies have shown that people consistently perceive stimuli applied to their hands as happening before stimuli applied directly to their brains....when both stimuli are applied at the same instant...and even when the stimuli is purposely applied to their hands a fraction of a second later than the one to their brain. In fact, everything you experience about the "material universe" didn't happen quite when you think it did...it's automatically ancd constantly being backdated by your brain. Look at your hands while you snap your fingers. What you see, that sound you hear, that feeling of the slap of your finger on the flesh, that all happened a fraction of a second before you believe it did. We are experiencing the entire "riiiiight now" universe about 150 milliseconds after everything actually happens. Combined with the fact that there is a process deep in our brains making decisions before we even know what the decision is...and...life is more like a watching movie than a playing a game.

Everything you can think of to "prove" or "demostrate" that free will exists immediately fails the cause-and-effect test.

"Look at this wild and crazy/spontaneous thing I am doing! There's no logical reason for it! No cause for this effect! Therefore it must be something "I" used my consciousness to decide to do with my free will! Proof!"

Of course, this only proves a reaction to the futile challenge of proving you have free will (the cause of the effect).

Great, so every criminal should be set free? I mean it wasn't them right? How can they be blamed for their acts? In the immortal words of every thug arrested on COPS "That **** ain't mine!" :lol:slap
 
Of course, this only proves a reaction to the futile challenge of proving you have free will (the cause of the effect).

We wouldn't be questioning whether we had it or not if we didn't. We couldn't. One of the finer points of the self-evident is that, not only does it not require proof, it cannot be proven. It is pre-logic. Logic is a method of guaranteeing that one's mental contents conform to the facts of reality, and are consistent with other mental content. If there were no room for error, nor room for correcting error, it would be because our the functions of our consciousness automatically conform to reality (as it does in animals, who, if you've noticed, do not question their mental processes or content).

The introspective data available to support the self-evidency of consciousness is the effort required on the part of the observer at the base level of consciousness: we do not automatically know what we're observing; we have to volitionally exert the required energy to understand. Staring at a physics text will not teach you phyics. Reading it with a fully engaged attention, consciously differentiating and integrating the information within the context of data and experimentation, and comprehending how it makes sense as opposed to other explanations of nature is not something that happens unless you make it happen.

The argument you're using to evade this (that science says you can't control your own thinking; how you can have science without self-initiated, self-monitored mental focus is a complete mystery, apparently :duh) relies on an acausal representation of free will. It demands that decisions be made without the employment of any prior knowledge which the conscious mind has programmed into the subconscious; that every time someone make a choice, they either relearn the entire intellectual context required to make a particular decision (and immediately, in the present moment), or that they do it completely blind (spontaneously), neither of which would do a damned bit of good in fulfilling the actual purpose of being conscious in the first place (that purpose being to maintain the survival of the organism possessing said consciousness).

Free will is not the ability to make decisions in a vacuum. It's the ability to control one's attention for the purpose of developing a conceptual grasp of the world. This is almost a mirror image of the religious claim that to be truly free, a decision has to be unrestrained by the material world. Is this the nonsense that Sam Harris is peddling? Lol.
 
Great, so every criminal should be set free? I mean it wasn't them right? How can they be blamed for their acts? In the immortal words of every thug arrested on COPS "That **** ain't mine!" :lol:slap

Criminals are incarcerated because they can't control their actions. Whether each criminal is actually responsible for committing those actions is of secondary importance.
Whether they did it or they allowed it to be done through them makes no practical difference.

You incarcerate people to protect society from them.
 
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