What do you do when someone backs out of a deal you've already spent time/money/etc?

[TwelveInchFigures]

I'm posting this in the General forum because I know that trades happen privately outside of the commerce area, so this is something that effects many of us.

Namely, someone sends you payment for something (In the cases I'm thinking of, a few hundred dollars on average). Then suddenly the come up with a lame excuse (their dog got sick - I grew up around and have dogs and what this guy was describing was ludicrous, just would't happen so I could tell he was making it up), or they didn't read over the description very well and AFTER sending money decide they don't want something after all and ask for a refund.

This has happened several times on here to me, AFTER I have purchased postage or dedicated a significant amount of time/resources to to their project or toward shipping something out to them they wanted. Now it wouldn't be a big deal, except my time is precious to me. I have a feeling some of these people would make a federal case out of not being fully refunded, because too many people are too damned entitled (and hence miserably unhappy because they aren't grateful for anything, but that's a topic for another time and place).

IT HURTS after awhile, frankly the fact that my whole family and I have the flu right now probably isn't helping my mood one bit.

So... if I implement a policy that refunds can only be given minus whatever time/money/resource expenditure I've already committed to a project, does this seem reasonable, or do I need to stop offering figure backgrounds? Part of the reason they're pricey, frankly, is because people want custom work and I get the vast majority of my custom work from here, but everyone seems to want it for free, I have to point out repeatedly how much I love living in a house and having food on the table and that if it was them they'd have to charge too.

Okay, end of rant. I need to go take some theraflu.

Happy Flu Year.
Ken

 

[generalszabo]

Hello I've started posting since I bought two of your backdrops I think what you're proposing is entirely reasonable, just make it clear that is the case when you bill them. Most of the time they're probably lying anyway and committed to something without thinking then want the funds for something else. Also I am NOT an expert in law but I don't know how anyone can take you to court or make you pay the remainder, just my two cents (or pennies here in UK)

 

[Stryker2011]

It's not unreasonable to expect to be compensated for your time, materials, etc. But, as you've stated, people can be finicky, so I would make it clear before the "contract" is made, that regardless of whether the contract is fulfilled for whatever reason, that you will only refund a certain amount. If the buyer agrees, so be it; if they think you're being unreasonable, the project hasn't been started, and you can both walk away.

 

[toylion]

Just charge a NRD- Non Refundable Deposit. An amount that will cover the cost of your time, etc.

 

[TwelveInchFigures]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. I've been lax about enforcing the deposits I had originally proposed some time back, but no more: had three deals gone bad in the last week and enough is enough. And I agree most people I've interacted with here haven't lied as far as I know, but I know the one with the dog story did - I will spare details, not worth going into. There are far more thoughtless people who just don't think about how their actions might be hurting someone else, but that's why we have contracts. So I wrote up something simple this morning - I have probably forgotten a few things I'll have to add later, and it probably has some of my currently grumpy attitude in it - I'll strip it of that too once I'm recovered from this God-awful flu, so that it's just the facts:

(Just edited this and pasted here rather than create a new post, think this is more factual and less grumpy than my initial effort. If I've overlooked anything I appreciate feedback - thanks!)

1. A MINIMUM $25 non-refundable deposit required for ALL projects (sorry no exceptions even for previous customers).

2. Depending on cost involved, some projects will require HIGHER non-refundable deposit - you'll be informed along with price estimate what the non-refundable deposit cost will be. This is to cover my cost in time, materials, etc.

3. If you make a purchase and you cancel it even if it wasn't a custom order, the $25 non-refundable deposit still applies. If shipping is already purchased before you cancel, shipping charges will apply too and not be refunded.

4. Custom work entitles you to minor edits of the work. If requested changes depart from the original project or it will take more than a few minutes of my time to implement them, then there WILL BE ADDITIONAL CHARGES. I'll make as many changes as you like so long as you'll pay for them.

The most unfortunate thing is that too many people don't read. I've been selling for some time now, and I can write up all the contracts and descriptions of products I want to, and inevitably some idiot will come along who sees a picture and clicks "buy" without knowing the first thing about what was purchased. Then they get it, it's different than they thought, and suddenly they're opening PayPal claims against me. Thank God this doesn't happen much, mostly around Christmas when everyone and their Uncle are online shopping.

But anyway, from now on the first thing I will do is email the prospective client our terms, if the person chooses not to read it that's out of my hands, I've done my part.

Thanks again, and sorry for my grumpiness - stupid and thoughtless people tick me off, especially when I have the flu.

Cheers,
Ken

 

[j97e1]

Your contract totally makes sense.

 

[316what]

It looks good with the exception of the purchased postage part. The postage could be used by you in the future for another order so I don't think you should include it since it's basically "recyclable" costs.

In the end it doesn't really matter what your contract says if someone pays using Paypal because Paypal will side with the buyer.

 

[TwelveInchFigures]

I purchase postage paid labels on USPS - they have the address on them and weight, so it can't be used for something else - it's weight and destination specific, not like buying stamps. So yes it does become an issue.

 

[potato]

IMO if you are honest and the buyer canceled his order very soon after he made the order, you should just give a full refund if you haven't started anything, or purchased the materials.

 

[Lejuan]

IMO if you are honest and the buyer canceled his order very soon after he made the order, you should just give a full refund if you haven't started anything, or purchased the materials.

That's not the issue here though.

 

[potato]

That's not the issue here though.

it is in Point 3 on non refundable deposits.

 

[Lejuan]

it is in Point 3 on non refundable deposits.

Ah, ok.

My take on that is screw everybody and their stupid first-world issues. If you can't afford to lay down an NRD on a product you at some point intended to purchase, don't lay down an NRD. Small outfits work on small margins, and being messed around sucks all the passion out of the work. 25 bucks for wasting someone's time is a fair trade, buyers should suck it up imo.

 

[pturtle]

This thread was probably made for me

I hope I didn’t rub you the wrong way buddy, I admitted that I should have done more research as I read an older description on what I thought I was getting from one of your threads, I didn’t know it had been updated. Even still I didn’t demand any payment back, I asked if the transaction could be canceled about few hours after I paid, so I didn’t think any work was done, and when you mentioned you might be stuck with a shipping fee I offered to take care of it. I sell on here too so I always try to be as easy going with sellers as much as possible because I know how annoying some buyers can be.

But yea a NRD would probably be the best solution for you.

 

[TwelveInchFigures]

Hi pturtle, I think I will be able to get the shipping back, it's required me jumping through some hoops and that's a few hours of my life I won't get back. That was the part that irked me to be honest, and no you're not the only one this was meant for. Some people come on here, see something they like, buy without looking, and even if it's cancelled a couple hours later I tend to move quickly and get things right out - so a few hours can be a big deal. Several people have done this sort of thing to me, one was right down nasty to me for no good reason. I've been a pushover (the people-pleaser in me) and haven't enforced my own rules in the past. So I will be sticking to my new policies, and if someone doesn't want to put a non-refundable deposit, then I invite them NOT to buy from me - it tells me they're not serious, they don't want to take responsibility for placing an order, and therefore their orders can't be trusted and I don't want to waste my time cleaning up their whims.

But you are not the only person who has done this, as stated I'm dealing with two other customers (and the flu to boot, though it's slowly getting better) - they really come out of the woodwork around Christmas (it's my least favorite time of the year, from a seller's perspective. I suspect if you sell too then you know what I'm talking about, unless you've been lucky or I've been unlucky).

Anyway, at this point more concern with going forward than rehashing the past, so in a way you did me a favor - I now have policy in place, and people can love me, hate me, buy or not buy. The policy is here to stay, so those who complain can talk to the hand (and there will be those who complain)... and so this is progress and will save me future headache. (That's me saying thank you in a flu-induced grumpy haze. )

It's fun to watch that little laughing head roll isn't it?

 

[pturtle]

Hi pturtle, I think I will be able to get the shipping back, it's required me jumping through some hoops and that's a few hours of my life I won't get back. That was the part that irked me to be honest, and no you're not the only one this was meant for. Some people come on here, see something they like, buy without looking, and even if it's cancelled a couple hours later I tend to move quickly and get things right out - so a few hours can be a big deal. Several people have done this sort of thing to me, one was right down nasty to me for no good reason. I've been a pushover (the people-pleaser in me) and haven't enforced my own rules in the past. So I will be sticking to my new policies, and if someone doesn't want to put a non-refundable deposit, then I invite them NOT to buy from me - it tells me they're not serious, they don't want to take responsibility for placing an order, and therefore their orders can't be trusted and I don't want to waste my time cleaning up their whims.

But you are not the only person who has done this, as stated I'm dealing with two other customers (and the flu to boot, though it's slowly getting better) - they really come out of the woodwork around Christmas (it's my least favorite time of the year, from a seller's perspective. I suspect if you sell too then you know what I'm talking about, unless you've been lucky or I've been unlucky).

Anyway, at this point more concern with going forward than rehashing the past, so in a way you did me a favor - I now have policy in place, and people can love me, hate me, buy or not buy. The policy is here to stay, so those who complain can talk to the hand (and there will be those who complain)... and so this is progress and will save me future headache. (That's me saying thank you in a flu-induced grumpy haze. )

It's fun to watch that little laughing head roll isn't it?

I totally understand, I’ll probably be buying a detolf sized back drop from you soon so I didn’t want there to be an animosity

Feel better man

 

[a-dev]

Ah, ok.

My take on that is screw everybody and their stupid first-world issues. If you can't afford to lay down an NRD on a product you at some point intended to purchase, don't lay down an NRD. Small outfits work on small margins, and being messed around sucks all the passion out of the work. 25 bucks for wasting someone's time is a fair trade, buyers should suck it up imo.

Agreed. I've paid NRDs on things that I've subsequently cancelled. Tough **** on me, I knew the terms.

Having bought from TwelveInchFigures recently I can see how just a few hours makes so much difference as he works fast with backdrops that are already designed and merely need to be printed. A good thing for customers but if a customer is flaky one can see how problems will emerge.

 

[TwelveInchFigures]

Thanks for the responses. No animosity, life is too short.

 

[Traumacaspian]

I am lucky I haven't had this problem yet and hopefully fingers cross I never have to run into this problem!