The Dark Knight Rises *SPOILERS*

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Yeah, I get that, but,

"Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman, he can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice"

"Perhaps both Bruce and Mr. Dent believe that Batman stands for something more important than a terrorist's whims, even if everyone hates him for it."

"That's the sacrifice he's making, to not be a hero, to be something more."




Bruce Wayne can't accomplish the same good that Batman can, and vice versa.

Alfred's out of line and out of character in TDKR. He knows that the League of Shadows is involved with the city, he knows that the city and police can't handle it (and they can't) without Batman's help. They couldn't do it in Batman Begins, why would he expect that now?

Not once in this trilogy does Bruce/Batman ever come to the realization that he can do great things as Batman AND as Bruce Wayne. It's either one or the other, or none at all. That's sort of disappointing that we never got a Bruce Wayne that could come to terms with it all and be a philanthropist Bruce Wayne during the day and a crime fighting vigilante at night.

He has been a hermit, a prisoner, a crime fighter, a playboy etc. but he never found a way to juggle them all and by the end of it, he's not even Bruce Wayne or Batman anymore. He's let everyone else take the reigns.







What about all my other points? THAT AIN'T FAIR.


TELL HIM JYE!
Well, Batman was getting old and he kind of let himself go. And Alfred had, in his mind, hung up the Batman gig, while Bruce obviously had not, mentally. Thus, Alfred's support for it had faded. It wasn't out of character.

Think of it like boxing. If some guy retires for nearly a decade, and then decides he wants to get back into the ring... his old coach is probably going to look him dead in the eyes and say, "are you nuts? you'll get your ass beat kid."

Anyway, perhaps Alfred should've just told Bruce, in that awesome accent of his, "oh bloody hell, master Wayne, if you go out there now, you're gonna break a goddamn hip!"
 
Well, he prefers pounds, so figure out which part of your midsection the first pound's gonna come from

Please take my man boobs first :lol

Because god forbid they have to go to the shareholders and tell them the movie itself isn't as great as it's predecessor. :lol

LOL

Just look at what's going on here. Even the more hardcore Nolan fans are agreeing it's not as good as TDK. Hell, there was even a poll here proving that (though I'm not sure where it went). At best, TDKR is for the most part entertaining. At the worst, it's flawed and has gaping plotholes. TDK's dense nature and ADD was downplayed by great performances. TDKR didn't have that luxury, and many are seeing that.

This seems to be the case.

Nothing bad, still an entertaining popcorn movie, you know...like Avengers was....ouch! :lol
 
Yeah, this was entertaining for sure. Saying otherwise would be hating to hate IMO. This and BB are pretty equal IMO with TDK being the best and I think the BO numbers reflect this just not being as good as film 2 for several reasons.
 
This seems to be the case.

Nothing bad, still an entertaining popcorn movie, you know...like Avengers was....ouch! :lol
I loved Avengers. I came out of that movie as pleased as if I just gotten laid... except, I didn't get laid. Same with The Dark Knight Rises. The Amazing Spider-man was good too, but it left me wanting a bit "too" much afterwards.
 
TDKR makes BB and TDK even greater for me, by expanding and concluding on many of the ideas presented

That is probably the main reason why right now it stands ever so slightly above the other two . It gives them more meaning and it concludes Bruce's story in a great way for me

Same here except BB is still tops for me. Interesting couple of days lurking this thread. Good debate actually. I can't get into it because I'm on here for 5 to 10 minutes at a time but I do see the arguments posted by both sides. DiFabio, I agree that TDKR isn't at all what I expected to follow TDK. After TDK, I was expecting Wayne to realize that he will never be able to have the normal life he wanted and accept his fate as Batman. That the point of TDK was to set that part of his story up. His actions have not only cost his loved one her life but the rise of the freaks would happen and Batman's war on crime would forever be changed from fighting the mob to fighting the freaks. That is what I WANTED!

But we got a new spin on the tale and to be honest I hated the idea of Bruce being a hermit for 8 years at first. But I grew to accept it as an Elseworlds tale and Nolan finishing his version of Batman. There will never be a definitive Batman on screen when the character has been around for 70 years. Nolan came closest to me, but I do wish we would have gotten a bit more time with Batman as Batman and his war on crime only lasting like a year and a half. But for me I guess I enjoyed the sophistication and respect Nolan gave these characters. The story as a whole was great and only the finest actors were picked to play with these great characters. I wish we had more than only 3 films because the Rogues Gallery is so huge and it's weird to think Batman retired without having known The Riddler, Penguin, Croc, etc.

I am grateful that we got 3 great Batman films and they may not have ended where I expected them to, but it was a fun ride and I have only the highest respect for Christopher Nolan and his team.
 
Same here except BB is still tops for me. Interesting couple of days lurking this thread. Good debate actually. I can't get into it because I'm on here for 5 to 10 minutes at a time but I do see the arguments posted by both sides. DiFabio, I agree that TDKR isn't at all what I expected to follow TDK. After TDK, I was expecting Wayne to realize that he will never be able to have the normal life he wanted and accept his fate as Batman. That the point of TDK was to set that part of his story up. His actions have not only cost his loved one her life but the rise of the freaks would happen and Batman's war on crime would forever be changed from fighting the mob to fighting the freaks. That is what I WANTED!

But we got a new spin on the tale and to be honest I hated the idea of Bruce being a hermit for 8 years at first. But I grew to accept it as an Elseworlds tale and Nolan finishing his version of Batman. There will never be a definitive Batman on screen when the character has been around for 70 years. Nolan came closest to me, but I do wish we would have gotten a bit more time with Batman as Batman and his war on crime only lasting like a year and a half. But for me I guess I enjoyed the sophistication and respect Nolan gave these characters. The story as a whole was great and only the finest actors were picked to play with these great characters. I wish we had more than only 3 films because the Rogues Gallery is so huge and it's weird to think Batman retired without having known The Riddler, Penguin, Croc, etc.

I am grateful that we got 3 great Batman films and they may not have ended where I expected them to, but it was a fun ride and I have only the highest respect for Christopher Nolan and his team.

:exactly::clap:goodpost::clap:exactly:
 
The purpose of that post was that the creators and story writers want the audience to respond by responding for them and to me it feels forced. I love Michael Caine but, he, that stuff with him was making me gag. I was looking at my hand and wondering if I should choose two fingers or my fist.

I mean like the crying between MJ and Peter. The crying between Sandman and Spider-Man. The emotional scenes with Peter and Harry. All that stuff. "HERE, LOOK AT THEM, THEY'RE CRYING, THIS IS EMOTIONAL, IT'S THE THIRD FILM, THIS IS SAD BRO".

I understand, I just don't think it necessarily has to be a flaw. It all depends on how this fits to the story and how it's potrayed in the movie.

I for one, loved Caine in this. It's the kind of actor that can not only sell the kind of dialogue he has in TDKR, but actually make it hit You.

Like I said before, Caine's Alfred is the only potrayal of the butler that has any significance and meaningful presence in the story, rather then just making Bruce's bed and ironing his suits.

His love and care for Bruce is palpable. Plus the acting chops and natural, cockney charisma of Michael Caine, are one of the strenght's of this trilogy.



"Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman, he can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice"

"Perhaps both Bruce and Mr. Dent believe that Batman stands for something more important than a terrorist's whims, even if everyone hates him for it."

"That's the sacrifice he's making, to not be a hero, to be something more."




Bruce Wayne can't accomplish the same good that Batman can, and vice versa.

Alfred's out of line and out of character in TDKR. He knows that the League of Shadows is involved with the city, he knows that the city and police can't handle it (and they can't) without Batman's help. They couldn't do it in Batman Begins, why would he expect that now?

But that was a bit differen't situation wasn't it? When Alfred told Bruce to "endure it" in TDK, he meant taking on all the deaths in the city. Bruce was worried that his actions resulted in civilan casualites, but Alfred knew that in the end if Joker wasn't stopped there would be even more corpses. He meant that as an outlaw, Batman can do the right thing that the police won't.

In TDKR it's a different situation. He sees the toll that being Batman has taken on Bruce, even worse he sees Bruce's self-destructing patterns and the possibility that this confrontation will end up with Bruce dead. Of course he wasn't going to encourge him. Also from his Alfred's point of view, I guess the situtation was a little different, since Gotham didn't really needed Batman. He thought the bolstered police forces that managed to help clean the city, would be enough for Bane. Wheather he was right or not is another matter, but You can't blame him.


I mean this guy has been with Wayne for so long. He raised him, he sticked with him while he went about his crazy, bonkers plan of terrorising crime in a rubber bondage suit. But he sees that if Bruce will keep doing this, he'll end up dead. He knew that Bruce could be semi-suicidal, becouse he lived with him for the past 8 years and he knew how funky his psyche was. He wasn't just going to let him die. Even if one disagrees with his decision to leave, one cannot blame him for caring for his surrogate-son. He understood(and supported) the sacrafices that Bruce made so far for the city, but watching him kill himself was too much for the old sod.
 
Just stop your just going to be called a troll for defending a movie you like that's how it works here.
 
Same here except BB is still tops for me. Interesting couple of days lurking this thread. Good debate actually. I can't get into it because I'm on here for 5 to 10 minutes at a time but I do see the arguments posted by both sides. DiFabio, I agree that TDKR isn't at all what I expected to follow TDK. After TDK, I was expecting Wayne to realize that he will never be able to have the normal life he wanted and accept his fate as Batman. That the point of TDK was to set that part of his story up. His actions have not only cost his loved one her life but the rise of the freaks would happen and Batman's war on crime would forever be changed from fighting the mob to fighting the freaks. That is what I WANTED!

But we got a new spin on the tale and to be honest I hated the idea of Bruce being a hermit for 8 years at first. But I grew to accept it as an Elseworlds tale and Nolan finishing his version of Batman. There will never be a definitive Batman on screen when the character has been around for 70 years. Nolan came closest to me, but I do wish we would have gotten a bit more time with Batman as Batman and his war on crime only lasting like a year and a half. But for me I guess I enjoyed the sophistication and respect Nolan gave these characters. The story as a whole was great and only the finest actors were picked to play with these great characters. I wish we had more than only 3 films because the Rogues Gallery is so huge and it's weird to think Batman retired without having known The Riddler, Penguin, Croc, etc.

I am grateful that we got 3 great Batman films and they may not have ended where I expected them to, but it was a fun ride and I have only the highest respect for Christopher Nolan and his team.


Yeah, I agree.

A new Batman film is better than no film at all but man I've been blindsided with all the choices that were made with this one. I don't hate it, but, like you said, it just didn't seem like the next step after what went down in the Dark Knight. In fact it feels like it could be a 4th or a 5th film/story instead of a third. I'd love to see/hear/read about the thought process that went into making this one from the Nolan's and Goyer. What concepts did they originally start out with? What did they abandon? Etc. etc.

And it's not that I'm not up for change. Saying, "this isn't what I expected" sounds sort of selfish, but when you come out of a film that has sequel potential there are certain expectations and qualities that are expected in the next film. One of those was Catwoman and I'll admit that this film delivered in that respect.

The ending of Begins has certain, I don't know, promises that ended up being kept with The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight was the next logical step after what occured in Batman Begins. TDK didn't only deliver what was expected (The Joker), it gave more. From TDK to TDKR, everything felt/feels strange. I don't know about other people, but if I was shown the script of TDKR this time last year, I'd think it was straight up fan fiction with the choices it made. I don't hate it but it's just a weird film to me. Like I said a few days ago, it's like a "what if" tale.
 
Alfred leaving Bruce didn't sit with me well at all at first. I felt it betrayed his character. But then I realized why he did it and sometimes people need "dramatic examples" and tough love. He did it to save Bruce. Again, it's just weird because nobody has really attempted to end a comic book story on screen before so we got to explore charcaters doing things they never would do because the story doesn't end. Alfred leaving Bruce. Batman telling Gordon who he is. Wayne Manor turned into an orphanage. Dammit I loved this ending!
 
Same here except BB is still tops for me. Interesting couple of days lurking this thread. Good debate actually. I can't get into it because I'm on here for 5 to 10 minutes at a time but I do see the arguments posted by both sides. DiFabio, I agree that TDKR isn't at all what I expected to follow TDK. After TDK, I was expecting Wayne to realize that he will never be able to have the normal life he wanted and accept his fate as Batman. That the point of TDK was to set that part of his story up. His actions have not only cost his loved one her life but the rise of the freaks would happen and Batman's war on crime would forever be changed from fighting the mob to fighting the freaks. That is what I WANTED!

But we got a new spin on the tale and to be honest I hated the idea of Bruce being a hermit for 8 years at first. But I grew to accept it as an Elseworlds tale and Nolan finishing his version of Batman. There will never be a definitive Batman on screen when the character has been around for 70 years. Nolan came closest to me, but I do wish we would have gotten a bit more time with Batman as Batman and his war on crime only lasting like a year and a half. But for me I guess I enjoyed the sophistication and respect Nolan gave these characters. The story as a whole was great and only the finest actors were picked to play with these great characters. I wish we had more than only 3 films because the Rogues Gallery is so huge and it's weird to think Batman retired without having known The Riddler, Penguin, Croc, etc.

I am grateful that we got 3 great Batman films and they may not have ended where I expected them to, but it was a fun ride and I have only the highest respect for Christopher Nolan and his team.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the sequel to The Dark Knight was originally going to push Bruce to his limits in a very different way, as in he would finally have to "kill." Obviously, there was the possibility of seeing a return of the Joker, at some point or another, except Ledger died.

Anyway, I like to imagine the initial villain of the film breaking out the Joker to involve him in some "grand scheme." And then eventually, after his rescuer is dispatched by either himself or Batman, the Joker would toy with Bats as usual and would ultimately try and kill Catwoman, which finally forces Bruce to take out the Clown. Though, that's probably not what would happen, lol.
 
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