Did TROS need to bring back Palpatine?

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Did TROS need to bring back Palpatine?

  • Yes, Kylo was too conflicted and/or we knew he was going to be redeemed

    Votes: 8 21.1%
  • No, they should have stuck with Kylo as the main bad guy

    Votes: 19 50.0%
  • Who knows, anyway it's history now

    Votes: 11 28.9%

  • Total voters
    38

Prime Clone

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The screenwriters say they couldn't have redeemed Ben without a new antagonist. Do you agree? Or were they just not thinking creatively enough?

I would have preferred they run with Kylo as the new supreme leader, and maybe have Rey "join him" with the intention of turning him.
 
Bringing back Palpatine made no sense to the Star Wars franchise but a lot of sense for Disney and their agendas.

I'm sure Disney was somewhat in panic mode after TLJ pissed off so many fans and Solo bombed. They had killed off Han, Luke, and Carrie died. They also had no real villain. So let's bring back a familiar villain from the dead, that ought to put some arses in the theater seats :slap.

It was also a fantastic way to make Mary Sue Rey the most overpowered character in Star Wars history while completely diminishing the accomplishments of George's heroes, so win win there.
 
I have no idea where any screenwriter could have done with the ending of TLJ to come up with a movie to end the trilogy. The way TLJ ended it felt like the end of a trilogy and not leading anywhere. I don't like having Palpatine back really, but I don't know what the hell else they could've done besides introduce someone else new that would've made no sense either. I don't think Kylo would've worked by himself, at least in any way where he'd be redeemed; they could've just continued the movie having another battle etc where Rey won.
 
Lol like I said. They were so desperate they literally scrapped the bottom of the Death Star to find any remaining OT character to get butts in seats. Desperate move
 
The screenwriters say they couldn't have redeemed Ben without a new antagonist. Do you agree?


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Taking the glass-half-full outlook, I'm at least glad Snoke turned out to have some connection to Palpatine. I would have preferred Plagueis. But at least he wasn't just another random supreme leader.
 
:lol @ Wor-Gar

Eh, I think Palpatine was fun. I think using Matt Smith’s character would’ve been interesting, but Ian is so much fun in the role. The biggest thing that bothers me about his return is that it undoes Anakin being the “chosen one”.

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Did George Lucas need to shoot Star Wars? There's no point in questioning the need. It is done that way. You may like it, or not like it.
 
Personally I don’t care. I’m 40+ and the magic of SW will always be growing up with the OT. The PT is somewhat special as by then I was a adult and had the income to buy my own toys so it kind of represented “independence”. For the Sequel Trilogy, I will sit on the sideline enjoy them for what they are and leave it to the kids of today if they choose to hold them dear to their hearts...Palpatine and all!!
 
The screenwriters say they couldn't have redeemed Ben without a new antagonist.

That right there proves that the screenwriters are idiots. Ben was redeemed during a fight with Rey. It was his mother who got his attention, and the memory of his father that turned him back to the light. None of it had anything to do with Palpatine, so Kylo's redemption could've obviously been done the same way without bringing Palps back.

Much like the TROS script itself, these excuses given by the writers for why they made their choices all fall apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny. Either they themselves are too stupid to know better, or they just think that the audience is too stupid to know better.
 
The screenwriters say they couldn't have redeemed Ben without a new antagonist. Do you agree? Or were they just not thinking creatively enough?

I would have preferred they run with Kylo as the new supreme leader, and maybe have Rey "join him" with the intention of turning him.

IMO unbelievably lazy writing to the point I think Terrio and Abrams are outright lying, or lying to themselves. But, re Terrio - Justice League.

By not having the already-established-as conflicted Kylo become redeemed but more of an "anti-hero" - and his mother, Rey, and his own doubts IMO were reason enough for him to side with Rey at the last - and not bringing in a NEW adversary strikes me as spectacularly lazy. *&^%, even bringing Snoke back as a clone who was LESS physically twisted up - having him sneer at Kylo something like - "u didn't think I wouldn't have a backup that would crush any, as I see all, I have lived centuries and grown in power, shadow was there in the beginning and will be there at the last, etc." would have been motivation enough for Kylo to re-think things. Waste of Andy Serkus and Adam Driver, waste of Knights of Ren, waste of potential light saber end fight, even a waste of Rey - also undermines the OT.
 
A thousand year old Snoke living in the shadows would also undermine Anakin, and also Palpatine.
 
A thousand year old Snoke living in the shadows would also undermine Anakin, and also Palpatine.

I strongly disagree. Sith are a separate concept from just "dark side users." Snoke and Kylo had been described *in canon* (before TROS, that is) as not being Sith. They simply channeled the dark side of the Force. Anakin's big achievement was ridding the galaxy of the Sith by killing Palpatine and renouncing Vader. Snoke and Kylo didn't undermine that.

You need to remember that the Sith had been considered extinct before Maul and Sidious showed up. The Sith are what upsets the balance of the Force. And Anakin is the one who ended their existence and restored true balance. Dark side users will always exist regardless, but they can be balanced out without needing someone/something extraordinary to be "Chosen" by the Force itself.

TROS saying that Palpatine and the Sith never died via Anakin's actions is what completely undermines the story that George Lucas worked two decades in telling. And saying that Palpatine wasn't defeated until Rey did it is something that I consider a total slap in the face to Anakin's legacy.

Just listen to George Lucas for about a minute and a half in the short clip below. For me, it's impossible to reconcile what he's saying about his story with what TROS did with Palpatine, the Sith, and their demise.

 
Just listen to George Lucas for about a minute and a half in the short clip below. For me, it's impossible to reconcile what he's saying about his story with what TROS did with Palpatine, the Sith, and their demise.



And yet literally just one single year after that interview he approved the canon formation of the "New Sith Order" which is formed after the events of the OT complete with new "Darths" and everything:

latest


I prefer the "once and for all" demise of the Sith in the Disney canon over the "they never go away Anakin's prophecy be damned" Lucas canon. If Anakin's involvement is necessary for you I'd think that you'd at least prefer him to be present during the final destruction of the Sith rather than him just killing one only to have an entire Order emerge years later.
 
J.J. *did* admit George told him Palps was dead. Obviously they chose not to take that on board.

Of course. No one is under any allusions that George intended for Palpatine to return after ROTJ (until George approved his return in Dark Empire of course, lol.) That's the tricky thing with sticking to "well George said..." as your anchor since he contradicts and revises his own stories so often.

So I tend to gravitate toward stuff that "feels" like what I think that SW/ESB George would have approved, which of course requires a ton of assumption and speculation on my part and why I can easily understand why someone would fixate on some other form of "canon" that everything must adhere to in order to be valid.
 
I strongly disagree. Sith are a separate concept from just "dark side users." Snoke and Kylo had been described *in canon* (before TROS, that is) as not being Sith. They simply channeled the dark side of the Force. Anakin's big achievement was ridding the galaxy of the Sith by killing Palpatine and renouncing Vader. Snoke and Kylo didn't undermine that.

You need to remember that the Sith had been considered extinct before Maul and Sidious showed up. The Sith are what upsets the balance of the Force. And Anakin is the one who ended their existence and restored true balance. Dark side users will always exist regardless, but they can be balanced out without needing someone/something extraordinary to be "Chosen" by the Force itself.


Not sure I'm on board with that, at least from what we see in the movies there appears to be no difference whatsoever between the Sith and the 'Dark Side users' Snoke and Kylo. 'Sith' might aswell just be a club that Snoke and Kylo for some reason weren't invited into but really they're all doing the same thing. And what would it matter as far as The Force and the prophecy is concerned? Anyone can turn evil and use the Dark Side but only the ones in the Sith club are a problem that needs dealing with through a 'chosen one'? Why should that be? Meh.
 
And yet literally just one single year after that interview he approved the canon formation of the "New Sith Order" which is formed after the events of the OT complete with new "Darths" and everything:

latest


I prefer the "once and for all" demise of the Sith in the Disney canon over the "they never go away Anakin's prophecy be damned" Lucas canon. If Anakin's involvement is necessary for you I'd think that you'd at least prefer him to be present during the final destruction of the Sith rather than him just killing one only to have an entire Order emerge years later.

George wasn't really shy about the fact that while the EU constituted canon, he didn't consider anything outside of his movies to be "official." He even flat-out said that even though the comics and novels had a returned Palpatine, none of it actually happened. :lol As far as I know, he was pretty clear about his personal insistence that Palpatine died, and that Vader ended the Sith. The EU was probably nothing more to him than money-making extensions of the brand in order to keep Lucasfilm going.

I personally never cared for the EU stories of a post-ROTJ SW. And later knowing that George didn't regard them as legit "truth" either made it all the easier to dismiss those stories. I was fine with the Palpatine "Contingency" as it was being put forward, but having Palpatine survive Vader/Anakin's actions crosses the line for me. I wouldn't be surprised if George saw TROS in a private screening and refused to go to the premiere because of his disapproval of it. And I wouldn't blame him.

Lastly, I don't think Anakin speaking to Rey at the end counts for much of anything since she heard all kinds of voices too, like Mace and Ahsoka. Those aren't Skywalkers, and having Anakin just be one of many disembodied voices telling Rey to get up so that she can accomplish something that Anakin apparently didn't is nowhere near good enough for me. The story value in Anakin destroying the Sith, and specifically the guy who ruined his life and family, is way too strong for me to let Disney override it with their anointing of Rey. GL would have to come out and endorse it all for me to even begin considering it canon.

Not sure I'm on board with that, at least from what we see in the movies there appears to be no difference whatsoever between the Sith and the 'Dark Side users' Snoke and Kylo. 'Sith' might aswell just be a club that Snoke and Kylo for some reason weren't invited into but really they're all doing the same thing. And what would it matter as far as The Force and the prophecy is concerned? Anyone can turn evil and use the Dark Side but only the ones in the Sith club are a problem that needs dealing with through a 'chosen one'? Why should that be? Meh.

Jedi and Sith are unique and distinct versions of light side and dark side Force users. The history of the Sith is its own thing; as is that of the Jedi. Not every light side user can ascend to being a Jedi; and not every dark side user is as dangerous as a Sith.

Imagine if broom boy starts using the Force to take care of Canto Bight thugs. That's a far cry from being a powerful Jedi who has mastered the Force. Or, since Finn is now Force sensitive, he'll need Rey to train him in the Jedi ways. Otherwise he'll just be a light-side Force user.

The same goes for the dark side. There are darksiders like Asajj Ventress who never ascended to being a true Sith. She (and others) draw from the dark side of the Force, but they're not Sith; just like Finn and broom boy draw from the light side but aren't Jedi.

Sith and Jedi are more than just amplified versions of their more "regular" counterparts. The Force works through them in ways that can affect galactic balance. And the Sith have the "Rule of Two." It's a concentration of power and knowledge reserved for a select few.
 
Jedi and Sith are unique and distinct versions of light side and dark side Force users. The history of the Sith is its own thing; as is that of the Jedi. Not every light side user can ascend to being a Jedi; and not every dark side user is as dangerous as a Sith.

Imagine if broom boy starts using the Force to take care of Canto Bight thugs. That's a far cry from being a powerful Jedi who has mastered the Force. Or, since Finn is now Force sensitive, he'll need Rey to train him in the Jedi ways. Otherwise he'll just be a light-side Force user.

The same goes for the dark side. There are darksiders like Asajj Ventress who never ascended to being a true Sith. She (and others) draw from the dark side of the Force, but they're not Sith; just like Finn and broom boy draw from the light side but aren't Jedi.

Sith and Jedi are more than just amplified versions of their more "regular" counterparts. The Force works through them in ways that can affect galactic balance. And the Sith have the "Rule of Two." It's a concentration of power and knowledge reserved for a select few.

But that really just sounds like the difference between trainee and master. And if we follow from that and say that Snoke wasn't a Sith it would mean he's a tier below the likes of Darth Maul on the training and force-using scale. Yet I wouldn't have got that impression from TLJ.
 
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