The Big Debate - "Originals vs Recasts (Knock-Offs)"

Hey all, there's been some real debate in the collecting community recently around support for or against recasts/knock-offs. I've been involved in some of those discussions,which has actually been a lot of fun. So much so that I thought I'd write up my opinion on the issue, with Part One linked below.

https://www.koolkollectibles.net/2014/09/the-big-debate-originals-vs-recasts.html

Hope you can take the time and have a read! Part two will be up soon. Comment with your own thoughts and opinions

In before the lock.

Dives for home plate before lock!

Lock? What does that mean?

...footsteps.. sharp footfalls echoing down the long, steel grey, corridors of teh interwebz.. reverberating through this contracted locality of time and space. ..it is the sound of a moderator..closer, getting closer.. RUN!

I dont get it. Why would the moderators do anything about this post? I'm not abusing anyone in that article am I? I'm not promoting anything illegal am I? So I'm not quite sure why this thread would be locked?

You are promoting another web forum (with a link), your forum, on the Sideshow Freaks forum.. that is generally regarded as doubleplusbad interwebz etiquette.

Really? So I've posted links to my youtube videos before too? Is that bad etiquette too? I dont consider my website a forum or group. It's just a blog.

What should I do instead? Just copy and paste all the text in here?

I don't know about the etiquette side of things, but this debate has reared its head many times in many threads in the past, and a locked thread is the usual result.

I thought that was due to people on both sides of the argument not being able to actually have an adult debate, but resorting to name calling, judgmental statements, and general arrogance on both sides. I dont think my thoughts convey that, so hopefully this thread (if allowed to continue) can stay if people are able to give their opinions without it degenerating into a slag fest.

koolkollectibleskhai said:

Really? So I've posted links to my youtube videos before too? Is that bad etiquette too?

What should I do instead? Just copy and paste all the text in here?

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Yep.. probably best to post it as a discussion thread in the Custom Creation section, although there may be a thread on that topic already.. tbh, I'm not very familiar with the Custom area of the Forum.

YouTube is not really a discussion forum..Forum etiquette allows some leeway for mentioning discussions or information on another forum (archive threads or breaking news) but not normally with a link, by the other Forum creator, as the OP of a thread inviting readers to visit his own Forum.. most enterprises are reluctant to act as an advertising platform for competitors.

koolkollectibleskhai said:

Hey all, there's been some real debate in the collecting community

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There is no debate. There is no grey area. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement - and punishable by law in every civilized country. Period. It is also forbidden to sell or promote copyright infringing items (re-casts) on the forum - them's the rules.

You can try justifying bootlegging and copyright infringement any way you like - that doesn't make it a debate, nor any less illegal.

Pixelpiper said:

There is no debate. There is no grey area. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement - and punishable by law in every civilized country. Period. It is also forbidden to sell or promote copyright infringing items (re-casts) on the forum - them's the rules.

You can try justifying bootlegging and copyright infringement any way you like - that doesn't make it a debate, nor any less illegal.

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Are you saying that I'm trying to justify bootlegging, or are you referring to "you" as in a general context? Because I think I make it quite clear in my opinion that I don't support recasting/knock-offs.

Regardless, I think the grey area comes in the form of third party companies. Perhaps this only comes into play with the Transformers license, but there are so many 3rd party companies making unique designs based on obvious characters from Transformers. They arent official figures, so dont use official names and have no official Autobot/Decepticon insignias, but are still sold at big reputable retailers like BBTS, Robotkingdom, and TFSource.

So why is it that these 3rd party companies can get away with making figures (eg. Quakewave, Citizen Stack etc). Is there some licensing loophole specific to Transformers?

I actually respect and admire these 3rd party companies because they actually design and engineer their own unique figures, with engineering to rival that of Takara. It's the same with custom figures where artists use their skill to sculpt, mold, and paint their own unique representation of a character. To me, strictly speaking to the letter of the law, they are also stealing IP.

But since they are using their creativity to create their own designs, I dont see that as stealing. They are not recasting or making a replica of something someone else designed.

Perhaps there is some hypocrisy in my own thinking, where the law may state the fact they dont own an official license means they shouldnt be allowed to create these unique molds. But someone maybe the fact they are putting the time, effort, and skill into that unique product somehow blinds me to the fact they are essentially basing that off a movie or cartoon design.

That's the grey area that I'm struggling with myself and my own thinking about this issue.

I think generally the only reason a company gets away with releasing an unlicensed figure is because the License holder is either unaware of the infringement, or is having trouble getting local law enforcement agencies to act.
For example, the unlicensed pre-order for a Judge Dredd (2012) figure that popped up recently, ran into a fairly prompt 'Cease and Desist' order from the license holder.

While it may be extremely frustrating for fans of a particular license to have trouble getting figures, it does not change the fact that an infringement of copyright, is an infringement of copyright.. regardless of the lack of available alternatives.

Taibhse said:

I think generally the only reason a company gets away with releasing an unlicensed figure is because the License holder is either unaware of the infringement, or is having trouble getting local law enforcement agencies to act.
For example, the unlicensed pre-order for a Judge Dredd (2012) figure that popped up recently, ran into a fairly prompt 'Cease and Desist' order from the license holder.

While it may be extremely frustrating for fans of a particular license to have trouble getting figures, it does not change the fact that an infringement of copyright, is an infringement of copyright.. regardless of the lack of available alternatives.

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I would've thought large retailers like BBTS, TFSource, Robotkingdom etc would be well aware of copyright laws and steer well clear of selling potentially illegal products. So perhaps there is some sort of loop hole in the Transformers area that doesnt apply to other source material. I'd definitely be interested in finding out why those are OK to sell to mainstream customers.

koolkollectibleskhai said:

Are you saying that I'm trying to justify bootlegging, or are you referring to "you" as in a general context?

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"You" is generic, as in anyone who tries to justify it.

That Quakewave you mentioned has no resemblance to 'Soundwave' whatsoever, so while it's a transforming robot, there really isn't much of a case for saying it's a copyright violation. It looks like a completely unique and new creation.

And keep in mind I was in fact referring to copying, not simply producing something original without a license to the source material. That's a somewhat different matter.

Pixelpiper said:

"You" is generic, as in anyone who tries to justify it.

That Quakewave you mentioned has no resemblance to 'Soundwave' whatsoever, so while it's a transforming robot, there really isn't much of a case for saying it's a copyright violation. It looks like a completely unique and new piece of art.

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Uhh, I think you have your Transformer characters mixed up! Quakewave isn't meant to look like Soundwave! Quakewave is the 3rd party figure representing Shockwave! By all accounts, it's the best representation of Shockwave ever made, and regarded by many as better in quality than most Takara official TF figures.

For me, I dont support the recasting or knock-off making of unique designs, regardless of whether that unique design was officially licensed or not. Some people are saying that is hypocritical in that I should not support those custom sculptors or 3rd party companies that make unique designs based off some source material.

For me, anyone that has the skill to create something unique is someone I admire and respect. For me personally, I have never actually bought a custom sculpt or 3rd party figure, but that's mainly because I havent felt the burning desire to buy them. But I admire the artistry and skill behind making them.

But recasters and knock off makers are simply leveraging off the skill and hardwork of someone else to make a replica at a fraction of the cost. That I will not support. But again, the grey area is whether it is right to support or admire those custom sculptors and 3rd party companies that make unique designs from source material for which they have no official license. To me, that is where the grey comes into all this.