Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

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Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Agreed!
Some things in MOS would have made choke myself in any other movie.
But i love it with all its flaws.
I can mock it as i can root for it.
Weird.
 
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Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Unpopular opinion incoming: Avengers is not some great film. It works, but is formulaic and has faux drama.They killed a character who at the time wasn't even in comics, and tried to play it up as if this was a massive thing. It wasn't. The fake drama of Tony catching the nuke and going into space. The fact all of Tony's character development in IM2 is washed away so he can be the quip machine. Loki's plan makes no sense. Avengers is enjoyable, but people act like it is the best written comic book movie ever. It's not even on the list. Oh and The leviathan things came through buildings, Tony went into one's mouth and killed it, it crashed on a building. And when the mother ship blows up and all the aliens just fall out of the sky. Avengers kind of just glosses over the fact that that city should have been a wreck, and people would have been dead. MOS at least acknowledges that superpowered beings fighting in a major urban area would cause untold damage and loss of life. Avengers glosses over it. And despite all of my problems with Avengers, I still like it. But I just don't think it's the brilliant comic movie everyone else does.

I will say that I do think that Avengers went TOO far in glossing over the loss of innocent life. I just watched it again the other day and I literally tried to find one single on-screen casualty. There isn't a single one. All those shots of upside down and burning gridlocked cars throughout the battle. Not one single person sitting behind the wheel or lying in the street. I was actually glad to see unlucky commuter cars getting shot up on the overpass in TWS. You didn't see close-ups of drivers getting shot up or anything but at least you KNEW there were people in the cars.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Unpopular opinion incoming: Avengers is not some great film. It works, but is formulaic and has faux drama.
I actually agree with you, but as I said, I do think it is far better than Man of Steel, as a film trying to tell a comic book story. Of course, you get inconsistencies and issues with almost any movie, but on the whole the movie progressed logically, I knew where the characters were coming from, I liked the characters (mostly), it was fun, the action was good, it had a nice conclusion, etc. From a popcorn movie, I wouldn't ask for much more.

MOS is a strange beast for me. It goofs in such big ways, but somehow I find the whole greater than it's parts. Codex nonsense? Silly. Tornado? Outright idiotic. Superman luring destruction to Earth before giving Earth a reason to appreciate him? Poorly thought out. Destruction, screaming, smugness, then uplifting first day at work? As you say totally all over the place. But damn if I don't still like the vibe I get while watching it. Cavill is awesome, the visuals are amazing, the music well done, the bad guys are total badasses, I just like it, even if I have hard time respecting it. :lol
I think I could have looked past all of that stuff as well, except that the creators just fundamentally differed with me on how Superman should be handled and represented across the board. As such, the things that really worked for me in Man of Steel (casting of Cavill, action, and Russell Crowe are all I can think of right now. . .well, the dildo ships were pretty funny I guess, and the suicidal Pa Kent was memorable in its way) couldn't hope to outweigh the other negatives, and in fact, further highlighted the flaws. In a movie that is pretty well made and knows what it is doing, I will usually ignore most of the flaws, and that happened for me with Avengers.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I will say that I do think that Avengers went TOO far in glossing over the loss of innocent life. I just watched it again the other day and I literally tried to find one single on-screen casualty. There isn't a single one. All those shots of upside down and burning gridlocked cars throughout the battle. Not one single person sitting behind the wheel or lying in the street. I was actually glad to see unlucky commuter cars getting shot up on the overpass in TWS. You didn't see close-ups of drivers getting shot up or anything but at least you KNEW there were people in the cars.

:hi5::goodpost: TWS struck the right balance. MOS went with real world destruction. Avengers went too far in the no consequences direction. TWS played in the comic book universe. SHIELD has actual weaponry, and they were using it, as was HYDRA. There is a sense of loss, but the movie does not dwell on it. I would love for MOS2 to move more that direction. Not abandon what they established, but reign it in just a tad.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

In a movie that is pretty well made and knows what it is doing, I will usually ignore most of the flaws, and that happened for me with Avengers.

So true. As we've seen we can pretty much pinpoint or call out flaws from every movie. It's funny how movies vary in how much they have to get right to win us over. Some movies coast on built-in audience appreciation and some are just expertly made and it's such a treat when the two actually come together (TWS.) We all have movies that are our favorites, ones we outright despise, a bunch in between and even "guilty pleasures" where we intellectually know that the movie is bad or poorly made but we still like it. I'm not embarrassed to like MOS but damn if it isn't equally fun to laugh at it's mistakes. :lol

:hi5::goodpost: TWS struck the right balance.

I think April 4th should henceforth be dubbed "Winter Soldier Day" and made into an international holiday where we all take a moment to sit back and recognize it as the greatest thing ever. ;) :lol
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I love it, the backlashes. Avengers is crap, Spiderman 2 is crap, X2 is crap, T2 is crap, Titanic is crap, Avatar is crap, anything that was massively popular when it came out is actually crap. :yess:
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I actually agree with you, but as I said, I do think it is far better than Man of Steel, as a film trying to tell a comic book story. Of course, you get inconsistencies and issues with almost any movie, but on the whole the movie progressed logically, I knew where the characters were coming from, I liked the characters (mostly), it was fun, the action was good, it had a nice conclusion, etc. From a popcorn movie, I wouldn't ask for much more.


I think I could have looked past all of that stuff as well, except that the creators just fundamentally differed with me on how Superman should be handled and represented across the board. As such, the things that really worked for me in Man of Steel (casting of Cavill, action, and Russell Crowe are all I can think of right now. . .well, the dildo ships were pretty funny I guess, and the suicidal Pa Kent was memorable in its way) couldn't hope to outweigh the other negatives, and in fact, further highlighted the flaws. In a movie that is pretty well made and knows what it is doing, I will usually ignore most of the flaws, and that happened for me with Avengers.

Kara on a roll.....good stuff, agree 101%

So true. As we've seen we can pretty much pinpoint or call out flaws from every movie. It's funny how movies vary in how much they have to get right to win us over. Some movies coast on built-in audience appreciation and some are just expertly made and it's such a treat when the two actually come together (TWS.) We all have movies that are our favorites, ones we outright despise, a bunch in between and even "guilty pleasures" where we intellectually know that the movie is bad or poorly made but we still like it. I'm not embarrassed to like MOS but damn if it isn't equally fun to laugh at it's mistakes. :lol

Fair enough.

I love it, the backlashes. Avengers is crap, Spiderman 2 is crap, X2 is crap, T2 is crap, Titanic is crap, Avatar is crap, anything that was massively popular when it came out is actually crap. :yess:


:yess:

:lol
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Regarding Coulson not mattering in Avengers.

After Agents of Shield, Coulson just might be the most fleshed out character in the MCU by Avengers 2. :lol
 
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Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I love it, the backlashes. Avengers is crap, Spiderman 2 is crap, X2 is crap, T2 is crap, Titanic is crap, Avatar is crap, anything that was massively popular when it came out is actually crap. :yess:

*checks watch*

Okay I've now decided that TWS sucks. Burn it with fire!
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Marvel just appears to get what comic books do, that is to deal with real world concerns in a hyper-exaggerated fun kind of way where the good guys win in the end. WB/DC seems to think that their characters have to be something they're not; Batman is ultimately a quitter and Superman is a careless crybaby. They're looking at us not like undersized Steve Rogers with a heart of gold just waiting for the right circumstances (or movie hero) to come around and properly kick ass. It's like they think we have self esteem issues so they don't want their heroes to be too awesome lest we'd reject them out of hand because they don't appeal to our underachieving selves.

No, we want our superheroes to have it all and win it all in the colors they were born in. They shouldn't need to jump through hoops in order to justify their actions, that's why they're superheroes. They may be simple that way, but I think that's why they generate so much appeal.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Great movies endure. There's no backlash against SW, ESB, Jaws, Raiders, ALIEN/ALIENS, Die Hard, The Shawshank Redemption, LOTR, etc., nor will there be against TWS. :lecture

I know there are kids today who think that STM and RoboCop 1 are too antiquated but they'll learn the error of their ways when they get older.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Marvel just appears to get what comic books do, that is to deal with real world concerns in a hyper-exaggerated fun kind of way where the good guys win in the end. WB/DC seems to think that their characters have to be something they're not; Batman is ultimately a quitter and Superman is a careless crybaby. They're looking at us not like undersized Steve Rogers with a heart of gold just waiting for the right circumstances (or movie hero) to come around and properly kick ass. It's like they think we have self esteem issues so they don't want their heroes to be too awesome lest we'd reject them out of hand because they don't appeal to our underachieving selves.

No, we want our superheroes to have it all and win it all in the colors they were born in. They shouldn't need to jump through hoops in order to justify their actions, that's why they're superheroes. They may be simple that way, but I think that's why they generate so much appeal.
The wish fulfillment part of it all is huge. That's why most of us first get into these characters as kids. We see heroes as bigger than life, and don't see any reason why they should be ashamed of it. And I do think Marvel gets that part of it, embraces it, and has succeeded because of it.

Having said that, I can also appreciate an approach that treats some of these characters are fundamentally flawed and troubled. I'm a huge fan of Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Moore-era Swamp Thing, much of Neil Gaiman, Warren Ellis, and Mark Millar's work, etc. But to do that effectively, filmmakers have to be pretty careful IMO, and of course, pretty skilled. It is easier to do a mindless action movie well than it is to do a thoughtful character-driven drama well (not that I'm saying the Marvel films are the former, but they tend to migrate in that direction if you think of this as a continuum). I think Nolan did a good job with a dramatically-oriented comic film, at least through the first two films. But I don't think Snyder did, and I don't think that is his strength based on his overall body of work. Hopefully Superman vs. Batman will have a better script that can, at least, help to push him in more of the right direction.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Great movies endure. There's no backlash against SW, ESB, Jaws, Raiders, ALIEN/ALIENS, Die Hard, The Shawshank Redemption, LOTR, etc., nor will there be against TWS. :lecture

I know there are kids today who think that STM and RoboCop 1 are too antiquated but they'll learn the error of their ways when they get older.

Nah some people like to slag Aliens. Hardcore fans of the first film resent its popularity over the original. Sounds familiar....:wink1:
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The movie seemed. . .off in lots of ways to me. You and some others were saying that Winter Soldier seemed realistic, and while I didn't feel it was that exactly, I did feel that I could relate to and understand the characters and situations, and that scenes logically built on and resolved issues from previous scenes. The way MOS progressed, and ended in particular, failed in that way for me. All this death and devastation, then he kills Zod and is a huge crying mess. OK, I don't like it in a Superman movie, but I can understand it for what it is. Next thing you know, Superman is thumbing his nose at the government, and smugly telling them to back the **** off. Is that a guy who is feeling melancholy and remorse, as the previous scenes suggested he should? You can get to the point where he is optimistic, or even smug, and have the audience get behind it. But I don't think the filmmakers understood how to get from point A to point B in the way that, say, they did in Robocop, or Avengers, or Die Hard, or any number of other, better films. I said this before, but I don't think the Snyder/Goyer tag team understand dramatic storytelling about people very well, and related to that, I don't think they understand very well the dynamics of conflict, and resolution. Better if Snyder is brought in to direct action sequences, but allow someone else to do everything else.
Yeah, well put - agreed. :duff
 
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