X-Men: Days of Future Past

Silrian said:

This is still better X-men material than any of the films to me, and that's not some nostalgic crap, I genuinely mean that. It might not be better material overall, but it's better X-MEN.


Moments like 1:29, Wolverine doesn't get moments like that in the films, where's he's a supporting character who's just being a badass. Because Singer has always put the weight of any scene he's in on him. Back when CB films weren't popular that was smart – it was a way to market x-men in a world that didn't take CB films seriously. But this is a different time. I want X-men films where Wolverine can just be Wolverine – the unpredictable, indestructible ball of rage that wants things to escalate as much as possible. What Hulk is in the Avengers, THAT is the Wolverine I want to see (another level of irony seeing as Wolverine was originally Hulk's enemy).

Nothing against the Avengers but, I admit, it annoys the living **** out of me that they're now credited as cinema's first good superhero team up. That famous scene where Iron Man flies by them all, that should've been X-men man. Whatever.

This franchise is half of what it could be. If DoFP gets more out of its potential, well great, I won't bash it at all, I'll love it. But the franchise's history really waters it down to begin with and it I don't see how it's possible for it to be anywhere near as good as a new start could be.

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Silrian said:

How can you think I'm borderline hating when I constantly say I might love the new film and love the old ones!? You know what that sounds like? Someone who's out of real arguments.

Yes, DoFP is safe, why? Because it's the only thing they could do that kept Jackman's Wolverine and THAT is why they did it. Not because this franchise is so great, or so beloved, because Jackman is. If anyone else in this franchise mattered, they'd have gotten solo films already – they didn't. Jackman got two, even though his first one was horrible. If Jackman wasn't as popular as he his, you bet you're ass that this would've been rebooted straight after Origins.

I love x1 and 2, and I think they're great films and were great CB adaptations for that time. But Singer did initiate a version that has flaws, and it's ridiculous, plain ridiculous, that we're still stuck with those flaws 14 years later, when we've had so much change in this genre. The only reason DoFP got greenlit is because Fox has faith that Singer can sell Jackman. And he can still, from the looks of it.

It's not hate, it's a fact that we've never gotten anything close to the core team dynamics from the comics the way CB films give us now, and that sucks. This new film might give us more of it, I loved the fight scene against the sentinels, but the number 1 -men, Xavier's star pupil destined to take over from him IS DEAD and he we don't even miss him within the films because he was a joke to begin with. This whole situation is a remnant of a flawed franchise history, and we're stuck with it because they don't wanna let go of Jackman. If you think there's any other reason, I'm afraid I'm gonna say you're either biased, or naieve.


Also, where do you get rumours from that Cyclops is going to return? And how would they want to do that? How could it even be close to the comics, if Cyclops of all god damn people is the NEWCOMER!? What the frig man? I realised yesterday that we haven't even seen ANY proper backstory for any team member except Wolverine and Rogue. What. The Mutated. ****. The Summers family is like the most important mutant family in the comics and the films have shown literally NOTHING of it (unless you want to count Havoc but he's not even told of what family member he is). I get that you like these films, I loved X1, 2 and FC and I might love DoFP too, but they're factually outdated, botched CB films. And that, completely regardless of anything these films do, sucks twin 17 year old balls.

There's no way to repair this, because for me, what I love about x-men beyond anything else, is seeing the team grow with each other, and even if they reintroduce Cyclops now, I never liked his existing version, and a new version is exactly that: new. You can't introduce a new cyclops to an existing team and go "Hey man, I've actually known all of you for quite a while in this new time line!" That's not storytelling, that's a cop out.

This franchise needs to be cut loose from the past, and if Days of future Past (oh the irony) does plan to do that, well, I'll get back to you. But I don't see it happening in any good way. If it does, well I will gladly to eat my words, because I don't want to be right, I want a modern x-men film with Cyclops as the leader.

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Silrian said:

To both of you: exactly.

X1 had a great Wolverine imo, he was an okay way in for the audience as newcomer. And he outshone Cyclops because he was written terrible and cast with a pretty boy, so obviously Jackman became the star. In X2 he already got put centre stage way more story-wise, because it dealt with Weapon X. And because X2 was an exceptionally good CB film for its time, nobody really dared criticise that (I think), but when you look back at it now it's just weak. It's logical within the hollywood back than, but it's completely unnecessary now.

There's just no validation for this film franchise to continue from a source material POV. There's just not. This whole thing is a rights issue anyway. Fox wants to keep hold of the rights, they already sacrificed Daredevil over it because they couldn't get a game plan for that. Now their just milking this, because they couldn't make First Class into a full reboot financially convincing enough for them to make the call and give up Jackman.

60% of anything in this film franchise is based on monetizing, at the least. And that's just terrible considering the days we are in. Breaks my heart honestly, seeing what Marvel and DC are doing, and even Sony for that matter. This is the time for awesome true to the source material CB movies and X-men is gonna freakin miss out on it if this continues. Pisses me off honestly. X-men fans deserve more imo.

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pturtle said:

It sounds like hating, because you literally want a whole franchise to be rebooted, because you weren’t satisfied with how your favorite character was portrayed.
[...]
Who cares how close it is to the comics. Worry about them actually getting the character right this time,

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Silrian said:

Those two sentences are just flat-out moronic.

Firstly, you equate hating with criticising, about the most unartistic attitude you can take. I also just think you're incredibly naieve if you think there's any point where they're not thinking of Wolverine.

Secondly the comics DEFINE the character. There is no right except the source material. You can't speak of right or wrong unless you equate it to its original version. And its original version, nor its subsequent arcs, nothing like anything Cyclops was, or has any possibility of being. And you may say I'm just moaning about one character, but Cyclops IS THE NUMBER 1 X-MEN (Xavier isn't an X-man, he's X himself). That is undeniable and undebatable. Wolverine is the most popular character, sure, but he's not the most important X-men by a long shot. He doesn't even originate from X-men.

Lastly what you describe regarding FC is not what's going to happen. They're gonna off shoot wolverine into X-force or make him Cable and give him less to do. So we might get Cyclops back, but he sure as hell won't stay in the team with Wolverine in the way many fans love. Also, I don't want young versions who are probably going to be as annoying as all the teen **** these days (now THIS is hating). The worst thing of FC was everything with those younger mutants. The FC cast is way too young as well. And I also have my doubts how long Fassbender is gonna stick around in this franchise.

If you think this franchise is going to give you an original x-men team dynamic again, I'm afraid you're setting yourself up for heavy disappointment. And I hereby refer you back to my previous comment I made, when I hadn't seen your last reply yet. I think it's still above this one.

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Silrian said:

Sorry if I come off a little aggressive I don't mean things in any personal way, but X-men is my favourite Marvel franchise and I'm just riled up over the state it's in cinematically when I look at what's possible today (or at least, what should be possible). So any and everything I say is aimed at the arguments provided, not anyone's personal preference. And I will once more repeat that I will probably like DoFP, regardless of my overarching conclusion that this franchise should be rebooted.

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Josette said:

I'm just rambling and throwing this out there....but, maybe because the original movies seem a bit...."dated" now. I'm not sure if that's the right word. But what comic movies are doing now, vs. what they were doing then....

But beside that, speaking only for myself, I look back at Singer's X-Men movies and think about the characters, the team, and realize I didn't really like most of them. I didn't care about Scott, or Jean, or Storm, or Iceman. The only characters I liked were Wolverine, Rogue, Pyro, and Xavier. Out of Magneto's Brotherhood, the only ones I really liked were Magneto and to a lesser extent Mystique.

The actors weren't that great to me. Berry, Janssen, Marsden...they didn't fit. And the characters were weak. And they were supposed to be the main X-Men team.

I think it's much more sharply apparent to me now that I have a lot of other comic book film series to compare it to, especially the MCU - there are so many characters in the MCU, from the main characters in each solo movie to the main Avengers team, to the secondary characters/sidekicks that are strong enough to maybe one day get their own movie or carry their own TV show (Coulson). The casting is pretty much spot on, almost everybody's likeable or enjoyable.

I'm big on characters and character dynamics, and casting is a part of that. Singer's original X-Men team just really wasn't that well done, looking back on it.

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pturtle said:

What I mean by right, is making him central to the plot now, not just some background character.

There are so many different iterations of these characters in the comics and cartoons its crazy. I personally don’t care whats comic accurate, I care about watching a great film. Any changes needed from the source material, to make for a better film is fine by me. I love the Nolan trilogy, I love what Webb just did with the new Spiderman movie, and I love these X-Men films. I’m a comic fan, but I’m able to understand that this is a different medium, and sacrifices are made to make a better film.

It just seems like this is the thread to whine and complain about all these things, when every studio is taking liberties with the source material. How come nobody complains that Robert Downey is nothing like Tony from the comics? He’s basically playing himself, and everyone loves it.

Obviously if DOFP is successful, spinoffs will be coming, and the franchise will grow. Everything was fine with the series up until X3, this film is supposedly being made to kind of erase the problems, and allowing the studio to start fresh while not entirely rebooting everything, and keeping the awesome cast they have.

Some characters in the first two films weren’t exactly like their comic book counterparts, but again, same thing is happening at Marvel, and at WB. Why is this franchise always singled out?



I probably shouldn’t have started my reply with saying “you’re hating”

Just that this thread gets bombarded with non stop complaints even though most of the films have been good, but I guess thats where we differ, I’m content with just seeing a great film, others want to see the comics directly adapted.

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Silrian said:

Oooooh, you want a fair treatment instead of just talking about Fox? Well I've got lovely news for you, and on these boards I know this is very dangerous territory, so I hope you appreciate that I'm risking life and limb for you (I'm joking... a bit): I LOATHE RDJ as Iron Man (boom, there it is, oh yeah, I said it) apart from Tropic Thunder, in which he's brilliant, I don't like him in general, and I loathe that there is no Iron Man character, RDJ literally IS Iron Man – or his arrogant alcoholic performing side is anyway. I actually don't really like Marvel Studios formulaic and childishly simplifying approach at all. But overall they are truer to the CB than any X-men film we've had. Only reason I mentioned them. X2 is still a better film than anything Marvel Studios has made as far as I'm concerned, it's just that, relatively X2 is a worse X-MEN film than say Captain America is a Captain America film, you know what I'm saying? That's what I meant. The only Marvel Studios movies thus far that I genuinely liked as films were Avengers and Winter Soldier, I mean for real, those are the only two. And it's all stuff for 12 year olds in my eyes (not that there's anything wrong with that in and of itself, kids need entertainment too – well, I'll throw it up to 15 for Winter Soldier). No I'd take X1, X2, FC and probably DoFP over anything Marvel Studios has made any day. But MS still makes better CB adaptations from an adaptation pov and that's what the discussion was about.

And here I continue, because believe it or not, I also loathe the original Spider-man films (why do I have a red dot on my chest and head?). Oh yes, all aboard the hate-train nerds and gentleman, because I genuinely hated Wussy MacGuire as spider-man. I do love Garfield though, even if ASM1 was mediocre, I did see the spider-man I hoped to see for a long time. And I'm very curious to see AMS2. SO that's why I never mentioned Sony, they happen to finally do something right for me.

I can't help it that I loved Nolan's trilogy and love Man of Steel (what a surprise) so I can't hate much on WB concerning comics, although they are utterly assraping any happy association I had with the LotR franchise (because twhat Jackson is doing to the LotR franchise is a thousand times more terrible than anything Singer could do to this franchise), so let's take that as a substitute for DC (and we all know Green Lantern was boring).

Is that hate across the board enough for you?

EDIT: although 2013 proved even Marvel Studios can fail on X-men 3 level (looking at you Mandarin). It's just that I don't care nearly enough about Iron Man to follow any Iron Man thread. And I do think Singer has done a lot of great things for the CB genre. But when I add every pro and every con up, I arrive at the conclusion that I'd just rather see a reboot than stick with what we have.

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Silrian said:

Oooooh, you want a fair treatment instead of just talking about Fox? Well I've got lovely news for you, and on these boards I know this is very dangerous territory, so I hope you appreciate that I'm risking life and limb for you (I'm joking... a bit): I LOATHE RDJ as Iron Man (boom, there it is, oh yeah, I said it) apart from Tropic Thunder, in which he's brilliant, I don't like him in general, and I loathe that there is no Iron Man character, RDJ literally IS Iron Man – or his arrogant alcoholic performing side is anyway. I actually don't really like Marvel Studios formulaic and childishly simplifying approach at all. But overall they are truer to the CB than any X-men film we've had. Only reason I mentioned them. X2 is still a better film than anything Marvel Studios has made as far as I'm concerned, it's just that, relatively X2 is a worse X-MEN film than say Captain America is a Captain America film, you know what I'm saying? That's what I meant. The only Marvel Studios movies thus far that I genuinely liked as films were Avengers and Winter Soldier, I mean for real, those are the only two. And it's all stuff for 12 year olds in my eyes (not that there's anything wrong with that in and of itself, kids need entertainment too – well, I'll throw it up to 15 for Winter Soldier). No I'd take X1, X2, FC and probably DoFP over anything Marvel Studios has made any day. But MS still makes better CB adaptations from an adaptation pov and that's what the discussion was about.

And here I continue, because believe it or not, I also loathe the original Spider-man films (why do I have a red dot on my chest and head?). Oh yes, all aboard the hate-train nerds and gentleman, because I genuinely hated Wussy MacGuire as spider-man. I do love Garfield though, even if ASM1 was mediocre, I did see the spider-man I hoped to see for a long time. And I'm very curious to see AMS2. SO that's why I never mentioned Sony, they happen to finally do something right for me.

I can't help it that I loved Nolan's trilogy and love Man of Steel (what a surprise) so I can't hate much on WB concerning comics, although they are utterly assraping any happy association I had with the LotR franchise (because twhat Jackson is doing to the LotR franchise is a thousand times more terrible than anything Singer could do to this franchise), so let's take that as a substitute for DC (and we all know Green Lantern was boring).

Is that hate across the board enough for you?

EDIT: although 2013 proved even Marvel Studios can fail on X-men 3 level (looking at you Mandarin). It's just that I don't care nearly enough about Iron Man to follow any Iron Man thread. And I do think Singer has done a lot of great things for the CB genre. But when I add every pro and every con up, I arrive at the conclusion that I'd just rather see a reboot than stick with what we have.

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DFanatic said:

You're right. Wolverine has always been "the man" in the comics while Cyclops has always been a character fans love to hate.

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Bardoon said:

Cyclops is a little self-righteous like Captain America, but he doesn't ooze the coolness of Cap, command the respect nor does he have a really unique power. All he does is shoot lasers out of his eyes, is a pretty solid fighter and bangs Jean Grey AND Emma Frost.
. . .
Why do you think Marvel Comics turned Cyclops into the Mutant Terrorist that Magneto was? He was boring and has been the same cookie-cutter character he has been for decades. Now, he's actually gotten a little more interesting.

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Silrian said:

Oooooh, you want a fair treatment instead of just talking about Fox? Well I've got lovely news for you, and on these boards I know this is very dangerous territory, so I hope you appreciate that I'm risking life and limb for you (I'm joking... a bit): I LOATHE RDJ as Iron Man (boom, there it is, oh yeah, I said it) apart from Tropic Thunder, in which he's brilliant, I don't like him in general, and I loathe that there is no Iron Man character, RDJ literally IS Iron Man – or his arrogant alcoholic performing side is anyway. I actually don't really like Marvel Studios formulaic and childishly simplifying approach at all. But overall they are truer to the CB than any X-men film we've had. Only reason I mentioned them. X2 is still a better film than anything Marvel Studios has made as far as I'm concerned, it's just that, relatively X2 is a worse X-MEN film than say Captain America is a Captain America film, you know what I'm saying? That's what I meant. The only Marvel Studios movies thus far that I genuinely liked as films were Avengers and Winter Soldier, I mean for real, those are the only two. And it's all stuff for 12 year olds in my eyes (not that there's anything wrong with that in and of itself, kids need entertainment too – well, I'll throw it up to 15 for Winter Soldier). No I'd take X1, X2, FC and probably DoFP over anything Marvel Studios has made any day. But MS still makes better CB adaptations from an adaptation pov and that's what the discussion was about.

And here I continue, because believe it or not, I also loathe the original Spider-man films (why do I have a red dot on my chest and head?). Oh yes, all aboard the hate-train nerds and gentleman, because I genuinely hated Wussy MacGuire as spider-man. I do love Garfield though, even if ASM1 was mediocre, I did see the spider-man I hoped to see for a long time. And I'm very curious to see AMS2. SO that's why I never mentioned Sony, they happen to finally do something right for me.

I can't help it that I loved Nolan's trilogy and love Man of Steel (what a surprise) so I can't hate much on WB concerning comics, although they are utterly assraping any happy association I had with the LotR franchise (because twhat Jackson is doing to the LotR franchise is a thousand times more terrible than anything Singer could do to this franchise), so let's take that as a substitute for DC (and we all know Green Lantern was boring).

Is that hate across the board enough for you?

EDIT: although 2013 proved even Marvel Studios can fail on X-men 3 level (looking at you Mandarin). It's just that I don't care nearly enough about Iron Man to follow any Iron Man thread. And I do think Singer has done a lot of great things for the CB genre. But when I add every pro and every con up, I arrive at the conclusion that I'd just rather see a reboot than stick with what we have.

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