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View Full Version : THE THIRD ACT: What a third in the Batman Begins, Dark Knight series might be...



Les Walker
07-23-2008, 08:20 PM
Ok, someone had to do it....

I have my gut feelings as to what a third film in this series needs to be.

First, I will say something that many seem to miss, and might make me unpopular, but despite Heath Ledger's MAJOR performance, and Aaron Eckhardt's and Gary Oldman's, and even Bale's, etc., etc....the story must go on!
I believe that both Batman Begins and Dark Knight, thematically and together, only serve to set of one hell of a true Batman movie. They are both, BUILDUP!
Yes, not an end in themselves, but a buildup to a crescendo.

I felt this in Batman Begins, and again, in Dark Knight. That forward momentum, and development in the character of BATMAN, whose tales these really are, not the villains, but BATMAN/BRUCE WAYNE, If this is a stew, it is a BATMAN STEW, and it is seasoned with Jokers and Ra's Al Ghuls and Scarecrows and Two-Face and so many more...and here is my idea of where this is all going....


Now that Gordon is finally Commissioner...
Now that Bruce Wayne knows without a doubt that he IS Batman and why...
Now that Gotham is in major chaos....
Now that so many villains are unleashed still, or out there, waiting...
Now that The Batman is a hunted and loathed hero...

Next movie, this all has to get somewhat resolved!
Now, I cannot possibly predict all the story arcs that could come, but I can say I see certain things that dramatically need to happen to resolve it in my own mind.

I think it will be a free for all. I think there could easily be many villains with the state Gotham is in. Returning could be:
Joker,
Two-Face,
Scarecrow (again!), and new could be
Penguin, a ruthless and short crime boss in the Nolan universe...
Catwoman, a sexy and dangerous thief (prostitute like in Year One?) that only Batman ever runs across in his night vigils, that could be both a villain and a support, while he is on the lam from the cops...
Add to this could be
Harley Quinn, the messed up Arkham doctor that frees Joker and remains at his side...
Also, could now be added in...
Talia, daughter of Ra's Al Ghul, in Gotham to find Bruce Wayne, and be his primary romantic interest, making Catwoman an interesting foil in this dynamic.

Also, the return of Ra's Al Ghul.
It is his story that he sort of can't die, or in the Nolan universe, at least didn't in BB. And he might show up late, as the third act surprise villain behind all this chaos. After all, did he not vow to "Destroy Gotham" and could the Joker have been introduced into the mix by him??? Possibly??? Although I think the Joker is a wild card in more ways than one...but could Ra's not be behind some of this as well???

And, I think it will be a big finale, where Gotham clamors for Batman's "legal" return as hero, due to the fall of order and the rise of so many crooks. AND, It might be wild and ironic if it were The Joker that saved him after all this. Because these crooks are gonna want Batman dead, and Joker will not.

And it will all end with Batman Triumphant. Hero, Batsignal back in the sky, the works! Big finale!


And someone like Johnny Depp might could take on Heath's Joker mantle...maybe....it is possible for someone else to play him you know. Maybe not as well, or differently, but possible...

All this is just food for thought.

That's just some of my ideas. I could be wrong. Might be. But, why not try to guess. Be nice to see in three years if I was close anywhere.

Anyone else got any ideas? Be fun to share them at any rate.
Sky's the limit. :duff

(But I do think Ra's is gonna show up again...)

Agent0028
07-23-2008, 08:26 PM
Eh, I'm not too sure about bringing the Joker back only because I don't think anyone can compare to Ledger (not just because of how good he is, but I think being dead has a little bit to do with it). And having a constant comparison of the two actors may be a bit much. Although Johnny Depp as Joker is an intriguing idea...

I too feel that Dark Knight was setting up for things to come in the third movie, and my thoughts run along similar to yours. But talk about pressure, it's gonna have to be good because I fear if it falls a little short it'll join the ranks of Spider-Man 3, POTC: At World's End, and Indy KOTCS in that they just couldn't stand up to the hype and expectations built up for them.

bwayne
07-23-2008, 08:38 PM
Yeah, I think there would be some serious backlash against recasting Joker. I mean they replaced Katie Holmes because she didn't want to come back, not because she's dead. As for characters, I thought they might do with Penguin like he has been handled in the comics lately. Make him the new "crime boss" of Gotham to take over for the crime families. Maybe Catwoman as a potential love interest for a depress and wounded Batman.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 08:45 PM
I think it'll be Black Mask for the major villain to tie back into the Mob which is a large part of these series and has been the "main villain" really. I think we'll see a couple of Bat cameos at least planned as there were a few planned for TDK that didn't make the final draft of the script. I don't see The Joker coming back Nolan seems very much in wanting to treat Ledger's portrayal and final and I'm sure that he won't write him in at least nothing more than a cameo.

UTtoyfan
07-23-2008, 08:48 PM
They at least have a theme for the next movie. That's a start! And those are some great ideas Les!!

http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2008/07/21/exclusive-david-goyer-says-he-knows-the-theme-for-batman-3/

Rugby1970
07-23-2008, 08:50 PM
Talia makes the most sense. The connection to Ra's makes her more valuable than Catwoman.

She really deserves a shot in the movies. Such a pivotal character in the comics books...

I think the right actress can really make something out of it... hopefully someone new and unexpected.

Very Curious to see how Gordon handles the cover-up at the end of DK. That's a lot of pressure. And Talia has a chance to be what Rachael never could be. She can love Batman AND Bruce.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 08:52 PM
I agree that Talia is a great character to include but since Nolan has made it plenty aware that this is his last shot with Batman, I see him going to Catwoman over her.

kl241
07-23-2008, 09:22 PM
Johnny Depp = ???????????????

kl241
07-23-2008, 09:24 PM
Angelina Jolie = meow

wofford29
07-23-2008, 09:25 PM
I'm part of the camp that believes Two-Face is dead, but if he's not...

The only way I'd want to see him come back would play out like this.

Have Two-Face still alive but literally on his death bed, life support, the whole nine. Essentially he'd be under protection and just being treated to make his death more humane. I'd then have someone like The Riddler as the villian who gets a hold of Two-Faces body and uses it as the bribe to Gordon and Batman to play his little games and riddles. I'd then like to see Batman faced with a Final riddle that pits him against the Riddler that would force him to kill him (Think the ending of Se7en) I'd then like to see Two-Face muster up the strength to get off his death bed and kill the Riddler so that Batman doesn't break his rule, and Two-Face redeems himself, then he can die.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 09:26 PM
Mark my words. The Joker will NOT be recasted, Two Face will make some sort of appearance, they'll be another Bat Villain introduced.

devilof76
07-23-2008, 09:34 PM
I agree that Talia is a great character to include but since Nolan has made it plenty aware that this is his last shot with Batman, I see him going to Catwoman over her.

Definitely. He's said that he doesn't like her, but I think to leave her out of this (or to relegate her to second tier status) would be a big mistake. She has so much to offer.

William Shatners Toupee
07-23-2008, 09:49 PM
All I know they really need to treat ALL of the Batman enemies like the gems they are, so I would hope that Scarecrows weak appearances build up to one major scarefest and that the 'crow gets his lime-light due he deserves instead of being a throw-a-way wussy cameo for two movies.

creecher
07-23-2008, 10:01 PM
That's a very ambitious tale you tell Les, and I do think you are on the money with the momentum. I got that vibe as well.

BB had a fair bit going on. Parents dead, lost youth, ascending the mountains and training, return to previous existence, the mob, gathering of allies, determining his foes, gadgets galore, love interest, battle from within and without.

DK was more centred around his enemy, while remaining frantic.

I would hope the third instalment centre on Batman and his world, without too many distractions by looking at each and every new villain he might encounter. Plenty of time for a fourth instalment to incorporate mayhem into the madness. I think The Joker can be played by another actor as easily as changing who Batman is, or his costume. It would be a minor role while Penguin takes over and the Riddler makes his presence felt through a variety of riddles, whilst never having to show his face in this installment. No love interest this time round, as this one ought to be about Batman being The Batman, with a cameo by Catwoman to prep for B4.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 10:02 PM
I don't see the Scarecrow really in the next one. The cameo in this one was a waste. If there is a cameo from TDK it'll be Two-Face, other than that I see this being self contained completely. The last act of most 3 part plays is "redemption" I have a feeling this will go that route. Look for someone like Dent to play out his Justice flips still having to do with Gordon or someone like Black Mask whose alter ego has a legitimate problem with Bruce Wayne and would be looking for his own redemption. The play on that will be the key to figuring out the villain. Redemption for Batman but also other characters looking for that as well.

Entropy
07-23-2008, 10:19 PM
Recasting Joker or bringing Ra's or Scarecrow back would be a major blunder IMO and I think Nolan is smarter than that. Talia, Black Mask, etc are not 'A' list villains and would only appeal to the comic crowd I'm afraid, so going in that direction would also be a mistake.

Obviously Batman must redeem himself as a hero again in the eyes of the city by the end of the third film. That is the major arc that must be resolved. Now how best to do that and what villains would best serve that story is the question.

I can see Riddler or Penguin working, Catwoman seems like a better, fresher direction to go. With her you get the Selina Kyle/Bruce interaction, replacing Rachel as the love interest, which I think is needed to some extent, you also get the dark mirror of Batman angle. Unfortunately, Catwoman is not a large enough villain to be a huge threat to all of Gotham. Penguin would be nice as he reflects the corruption that Wayne the businessman is prone to. But they will never do a re-do of Batman Returns with Penguin and Catwoman together again. Maybe Hugo Strange? Certainly not the really out there villains like ManBat, ClayFace, Killer Croc, Mad Hatter or even Mr. Freeze.

The only option that seems completely viable to me is the return of Two Face. He's established, and can be a huge threat to all of Gotham. Sure they covered a lot with his story already, they'd need for him to harp on about something other than Rachel this time, but I think they could come up with some interesting stuff if he became the new head of Gotham's mafia.

Two Face lived and attempts at healing him are being made in Arkham. This way we can get a nice shadowy cameo of the Joker in his cell, face not shown, Heath laughing or saying a line or two that was cut from TDK when Two Face breaks out on his own accord or is broken out by the new villain - Penguin or Riddler. Penguin would be nice to team up with Harvey as he tries to corrupt Gotham through legitimate business dealings, undermining and acting as a foil to Bruce Wayne as Two Face works with him to corrupt Gotham from the shadows and criminal world. Harvey dons a split suit and soon assumes control of the now fragmented criminal underworld, seeking revenge on Batman, Gordon and all of Gotham - could he flip the coin for the fate of the entire city?? At the end, Batman now with the aid of the thief Catwoman perhaps, helps Harvey regains control of his personalities, then Harvey sacrifices himself killing the new villain, Penguin or Riddler, before their plans to destroy Gotham are realized. This way you get the love story/Batman meets his match angle with Catwoman, the duality angle with Penguin/Wayne as well as Catwoman/Batman, and the redemption of both Harvey and Batman, re-establishing both as heroes in the city's mind.

man_vs_machine
07-23-2008, 10:22 PM
I'm hoping to see either Bane or Killer Croc as an enforcer for either The penguin or the riddler while they take over the crime world now that just about all the mob bosses are gone now. It could be cool to get Hush involved too. He'd make a great story line with the personal vendetta now that Batman's an outcast. I'd prefer to see Talia in the film over cat woman. I just think she would tie into the current progression of the films story line a lot better than Selina would. Either way, i loved the first 2 and I already can't wait for the next one to come out.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 10:26 PM
Ras Al Ghul is a foreign character to the masses and so is to some degree The Scarecrow. Goyer is writing these and he is very Comic Book driven using various sources to get his ideas and Nolan is simply redrafting that original story into a viable screenplay with his brother. I wouldn't count out anyone really because Nolan seems to be willing to put his own take on the characters as The Scarecrow and The Joker were very different than their Comic Book Counterparts.

What I still maintain needs to be honored is a connection to the Mob. Nolan wouldn't not have centered both films around that connection to drop it now.

Entropy
07-23-2008, 10:36 PM
The Scarecrow and The Joker were very different than their Comic Book Counterparts.

What I still maintain needs to be honored is a connection to the Mob. Nolan wouldn't not have centered both films around that connection to drop it now.

I thought Scarecrow and Joker were very true to the comic counterparts. Burton's Penguin, now that was a departure.

Having Two Face or Penguin assume control of the mob seems like a good solution to me.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 10:40 PM
Two-Face wouldn't assume control of the Mob. It'd be a departure for the character. I could see him going after the Mob killing and saving based on his flips more than joining them. The Penguin could be done because in the books he was much more realistic but somehow I see Nolan going darker than ol' Oswald.

As for their Comic Counterparts, The Scarecrow was a stooge....that really isn't how he is played...The Joker was a terrorist and a killer for hire.....The Joker in the books is much more of a clown and less of a lunatic...not that I'm complaining.

Entropy
07-23-2008, 10:44 PM
As for their Comic Counterparts, The Scarecrow was a stooge....that really isn't how he is played...The Joker was a terrorist and a killer for hire.....The Joker in the books is much more of a clown and less of a lunatic...not that I'm complaining.

I agree that Scarecrow was a bit of a change up, esp the drug dealer stuff in TDK, but his methods and personality were the same as the comic.

Joker was never a killer for hire in TDK, just part of his web of lies and over all plan of chaos, which is the force he serves and embodies in the comics as well.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 10:47 PM
The Joker was a killer for hire....he was constantly changing throughout TDK. With each step his intentions changed. He went from wanting to kill Batman to wanting to get Batman to kill him.....That's why he said "What do I do? Go back to robbing Mob Sharks? Oh No no no..." He found his way to power when he realized the power of fear. Remember "If you're good at something never do it for free". He saw the weakness of the Mob and it was his insanity and chaos that saw the plan to make Gotham eat itself using its hero Harvey Dent. His goal was to show Gotham it was unredeemable via Harvey, the terrorist acts were just his own fun to set up and distract.... It was an extension of Ras's plan in BB. That is why this act was entitled "Escalation..."

Entropy
07-23-2008, 10:51 PM
The Joker was a killer for hire....he was constantly changing throughout TDK. With each step his intentions changed. He went from wanting to kill Batman to wanting to get Batman to kill him.....That's why he said "What do I do? Go back to robbing Mob Sharks? Oh No no no..." He found his way to power when he realized the power of fear. It was an extension of Ras's plan in BB. That is why this act was entitled "Escalation..."

Joker NEVER wanted to kill Batman and NEVER wanted to unmask him. It was all part of his plan to manipulate. His plans never changed. He was the ultimate schemer and liar. He lied to his goons, to the mob, to the cops, and to Harvey. The only time he ever tells the truth to anyone in the movie is when he's talking to Bats about their nature, although he does lie about which address Harvey and Rachel are at.

The Mike
07-23-2008, 10:54 PM
That's the fun thing about Ledger's portrayal and the movie in general....so many ways to read it. Whether you see The Joker as a man who in his own insanity finds a way to continue to transsend or if you see him as a manipulator....its all good.

Joker
07-24-2008, 02:38 AM
The third movie is about Gotham rebuilding. After everything that happened in TDK, the people begin to believe in their city once more and in the end Batman retires... Then they could do The Dark Knight Returns based stuff with a different cast later on.

KrisSolo
07-24-2008, 04:08 AM
I too think it's building throughout TDK. I just wish they'd do 4 films and really run with what has become a fantastic imagining of the Batman universe. I hate everything being tied up all neat by the third movies end...

THE JOKER
07-24-2008, 04:40 AM
So was two-face dead or alive at the end thats the only bit buging me, they cant kill him of yet he was allways such a stronger character.

Darth Rage
07-24-2008, 04:49 AM
Joker NEVER wanted to kill Batman and NEVER wanted to unmask him. It was all part of his plan to manipulate. His plans never changed. He was the ultimate schemer and liar. He lied to his goons, to the mob, to the cops, and to Harvey. The only time he ever tells the truth to anyone in the movie is when he's talking to Bats about their nature, although he does lie about which address Harvey and Rachel are at.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I think he really wanted to kill Batman because Joker initially thought Batman would be in the way of his fun. I think he then realized Batman was the most fun he was having.

I think he was being truthful to an extent with Two-face in the hospital scene. "Do I look like a man with a plan?" Yes Joker is deviously smart, but I really think a lot of this was made up along the way, simply to amuse himself.

Shropt
07-24-2008, 04:53 AM
Please no more Joker. He can not be replaced.

I think a Harley Quinn / Female Joker impersonator could make for an interesting role.

I'd like to see Scarecrow come back if done correctly. It would make the cameo in Dark Knight stronger.

Really, I'd love to see them end the series here. If they don't we'll get another "superhero loses his superpowers/will to fight film".

Darth Rage
07-24-2008, 05:03 AM
Really, I'd love to see them end the series here. If they don't we'll get another "superhero loses his superpowers/will to fight film".

I don't think we'll see that. It was part of the second film. remember his conversation with Alfred - "Batman can't endure this." He questions his duty and effectiveness as Batman in parts of DK.

Kabukiman
07-24-2008, 09:07 AM
There's no need for a third one. End it on this perfect note.

Les Walker
07-24-2008, 10:15 AM
There's no need for a third one. End it on this perfect note.

I can't agree. Sorry.
NOW that they have Commissioner Gordon in place, and Batman on the lam with cops, I just can't give up on more. Plus, after this movie's take at the box office, YOU CAN BET there will be more! :rock Warner Brothers stops making movies that would make money for them, because a few select fans think they should stop? Nah!

Sorry, Batman fan here. Bring them on! :D Must. Have. More!

Besides, anyone, ANYONE, that tells me that another one in this series can't be good, or might be a letdown after DK, let me say these words,
BATMAN & ROBIN.
End of argument. There always will be worse.
Nolan or whoever could make Batman Teatime, and it would be better than the previous series.

Bring it! I will be there!

Agent0028
07-24-2008, 10:19 AM
The worst Nolan Batman will be better than the others, but it's going to be hard to live up to expectations. I think that's killed some other good movies. Either A it isn't as good as it was expected to be (Such as Indy KOTCS), or it will try too hard to be extremely good (like S-M 3). Finding the sweet spot in the middle will be difficult. I do have faith it can be done though.

Les Walker
07-24-2008, 11:18 AM
The worst Nolan Batman will be better than the others, but it's going to be hard to live up to expectations. I think that's killed some other good movies. Either A it isn't as good as it was expected to be (Such as Indy KOTCS), or it will try too hard to be extremely good (like S-M 3). Finding the sweet spot in the middle will be difficult. I do have faith it can be done though.

I think it can. However, I will admit to being worried if Nolan is off the case for sure for a movie 3. If so....uh...not so sure. Will still go see it. But, I know it will be a drop if so.
Only other filmaker I would hand the reins over to is probably Alex Proyas. I loved Dark City, and feel he might could do a good Batman movie. Other than him...not sure. Needs to be Nolan if at all possible.

The Mike
07-24-2008, 11:43 AM
Nolan has swore up and down that he wouldn't do another Batman movie after the contract is fufilled with a third film but so did Sam Raimi and now he is backpeddling saying that if they want him for Spider-Man 4 he'd do it, he just doesn't want to have to write it. So Nolan past 3 is still a possibility.....all I'm saying.

Not only contractually will the line continue but storywise it has to continue. Everyone is calling it The Empire Strikes Back of this saga which indicates that there needs to be a conclusion of some sort and WB will hold everyone to their contracts after the Box Office Champion that this film has been. Nolan has just now brought us to the point where most Batfans started with Gordon as Commissioner, the city fearing and not understanding Batman except for Gordon, Batman realizing that he needs Batman as much as Gotham needs Batman.....Time to see where he takes it.

minivader
07-24-2008, 11:54 AM
i got no problem with them recast someone else to play joker. Sure, heath did a good job, but that's all that is, a job. He is not joker in real life, so if the script calls for a joker, then a joker there should be.

Kabukiman
07-24-2008, 11:58 AM
Nolan or whoever could make Batman Teatime...

You heard it here first, Les wants the next villian to be the Mad Hatter!

I guess what I'm getting at with the whole "don't do a third one" thing is that the third movie will inevitably be the "falling action" portion of the larger story. A movie dedicated to that, while possibly interesting to you and I, won't fair to well at the BO.

If I could pick my own dream bat-project, I'd take an animated Knightfall trilogy. :rock

The Mike
07-24-2008, 12:00 PM
i got no problem with them recast someone else to play joker. Sure, heath did a good job, but that's all that is, a job. He is not joker in real life, so if the script calls for a joker, then a joker there should be.

Nolan seems very firm on dedicating the entire Dark Knight film to Heath. So, in reality since Goyer has a story in mind but Nolan and his brother hash out the story and cut things out of Goyer's script (The Black Mask was planned for TDK but was cut in the last minute because it was felt that it was too much for one film) I wouldn't count on a Joker recasting. I would think more that they'd move aside but give some sort of nod....

Entropy
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
The third movie is about Gotham rebuilding. After everything that happened in TDK, the people begin to believe in their city once more and in the end Batman retires... Then they could do The Dark Knight Returns based stuff with a different cast later on.

Batman retiring? Never going to happen. Is that really the movie you, or anyone else, wants to see??


I don't necessarily agree with that. I think he really wanted to kill Batman because Joker initially thought Batman would be in the way of his fun. I think he then realized Batman was the most fun he was having.

I think he was being truthful to an extent with Two-face in the hospital scene. "Do I look like a man with a plan?" Yes Joker is deviously smart, but I really think a lot of this was made up along the way, simply to amuse himself.

Couldn't disagree more. Believing anything The Joker says is a huge mistake. They never come out and directly say what the Joker's overall plan is, which is one of the reasons the script is so well written, it leaves up to the audience to piece together, or not, what really was going on, how the Joker was manipulating everyone in Gotham, the mob, the cops, the goons, Harvey, and Batman himself, to jump through the hoops he set up. Batman was never in Joker's way at any time. He was telling the mob what they needed and wanted to hear, just as he does with everyone.

The Joker very much is a man with a plan, despite what he says. Poor broken Harvey bought into his lies. The Joker told him what he wanted to hear. The Joker desires to corrupt, to prove his point that people are inherently selfish and will "eat each other", once the thin vinear of civilization is taken away, "all it takes is a little push" and he is that force to push them. He is proven wrong when neither Batman nor the people on the ferry are corrupted, but he proves his point when he very deliberately, within his overall plan, drives Harvey, "the best of us", to a life of madness and crime. Sure he didn't count on Harvey becoming Two Face, that was just a wonderful, random bonus for him, but he did count on Rachel's death testing the supposed uncorruptibility of both Batman and Harvey. And in the end, he wins to some extent. Harvey is lost and broken and Batman becomes the murderer, at least in the minds of the people, that he swore he would never become.

Joker
07-24-2008, 02:38 PM
There's no need for a third one. End it on this perfect note.

There is no need for any other hero movie after this triumph. It doesn't mean there won't be any.

wofford29
07-24-2008, 02:41 PM
Batman retiring? Never going to happen. Is that really the movie you, or anyone else, wants to see??



Couldn't disagree more. Believing anything The Joker says is a huge mistake. They never come out and directly say what the Joker's overall plan is, which is one of the reasons the script is so well written, it leaves up to the audience to piece together, or not, what really was going on, how the Joker was manipulating everyone in Gotham, the mob, the cops, the goons, Harvey, and Batman himself, to jump through the hoops he set up. Batman was never in Joker's way at any time. He was telling the mob what they needed and wanted to hear, just as he does with everyone.

The Joker very much is a man with a plan, despite what he says. Poor broken Harvey bought into his lies. The Joker told him what he wanted to hear. The Joker desires to corrupt, to prove his point that people are inherently selfish and will "eat each other", once the thin vinear of civilization is taken away, "all it takes is a little push" and he is that force to push them. He is proven wrong when neither Batman nor the people on the ferry are corrupted, but he proves his point when he very deliberately, within his overall plan, drives Harvey, "the best of us", to a life of madness and crime. Sure he didn't count on Harvey becoming Two Face, that was just a wonderful, random bonus for him, but he did count on Rachel's death testing the supposed uncorruptibility of both Batman and Harvey. And in the end, he wins to some extent. Harvey is lost and broken and Batman becomes the murderer, at least in the minds of the people, that he swore he would never become.


I agree with everything except for the very last part about the Joker winning. I think that was the whole point of the ending. Batman would abosrb the blame, although he wasn't corrupted, by clearing Harvey's name, which was Joker's "Ace." The people didn't kill each other, Batman wasn't turned, and no one will ever know about Harvey, so it negated everything Joker was reaching for. Batman was "being more than the hero."

Darth Rage
07-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Couldn't disagree more. Believing anything The Joker says is a huge mistake. They never come out and directly say what the Joker's overall plan is, which is one of the reasons the script is so well written, it leaves up to the audience to piece together, or not, what really was going on, how the Joker was manipulating everyone in Gotham, the mob, the cops, the goons, Harvey, and Batman himself, to jump through the hoops he set up. Batman was never in Joker's way at any time. He was telling the mob what they needed and wanted to hear, just as he does with everyone.

The Joker very much is a man with a plan, despite what he says. Poor broken Harvey bought into his lies. The Joker told him what he wanted to hear. The Joker desires to corrupt, to prove his point that people are inherently selfish and will "eat each other", once the thin vinear of civilization is taken away, "all it takes is a little push" and he is that force to push them. He is proven wrong when neither Batman nor the people on the ferry are corrupted, but he proves his point when he very deliberately, within his overall plan, drives Harvey, "the best of us", to a life of madness and crime. Sure he didn't count on Harvey becoming Two Face, that was just a wonderful, random bonus for him, but he did count on Rachel's death testing the supposed uncorruptibility of both Batman and Harvey. And in the end, he wins to some extent. Harvey is lost and broken and Batman becomes the murderer, at least in the minds of the people, that he swore he would never become.

Well I will say that your assessment is well thought out and worded, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

With the Joker as a self proclaimed agent of chaos, I think there's only so much planning he can make. Obviously there's a good deal of planning for each "event" (setting up Rachel and Harvey for example) but as situations change, he changes and rolls with it. I do believe his plan was to kill Batman and then toy with the mob and the rest of Gotham, until he saw that Batman was his only real challenge and in the end his ultimate nemesis, yin to his yang or opposite sides of the same coin (Ha-Ha).

:duff

Entropy
07-24-2008, 06:26 PM
I agree wofford, Batman did every thing he could to negate what Joker did to Harvey. By becoming the villain in Gotham's mind, he became more than a hero. Which was a wonderful conclusion to such a dark story. Though, assuming Two Face is dead, the situation Joker set up did force Batman to break his one rule not to kill. We shall see about that in a third film I suppose.


Well I will say that your assessment is well thought out and worded, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

With the Joker as a self proclaimed agent of chaos, I think there's only so much planning he can make. Obviously there's a good deal of planning for each "event" (setting up Rachel and Harvey for example) but as situations change, he changes and rolls with it. I do believe his plan was to kill Batman and then toy with the mob and the rest of Gotham, until he saw that Batman was his only real challenge and in the end his ultimate nemesis, yin to his yang or opposite sides of the same coin (Ha-Ha).

:duff

That's cool. I just don't think there's anything specific within the film to point to that supports the idea of Joker changing his mind about anything including his attitude towards Batman. He's a static character who believes the same things about himself, humanity, and the Batman and the end of the story that he did at the beginning of the story, though he is surprised in the end that Batman was truly uncorruptable, which fascinates him.

I think The Joker had already made up his mind about Batman being an equal, a worthy adversary, a kindred freak like himself, as soon as he heard about him, sometime off screen during the first film, long before we even see Joker appear in TDK. He decides to show his "brother" how wrong he is in his foolish pursuit of justice, to force his hand and make him admit what a monster he really is under all of his ethics and rules, even if it means his own death at Batman's hands. When Batman asks "why do you want to kill me?" Joker seems genuinely shocked and amused that Bats doesn't understand. "I don't want to kill you! You complete me." The implication is that The Joker also completes Batman, which Batman does not realize and is unwilling to admit.

If he really wanted Batman dead he would go about it completely differently than approaching the mob. He'd set a trap and simply kill him while he was distracted with someone else. As we later see, despite his insistence to "get paid for what he does well", The Joker has no desire for money. The Joker is after something far more difficult to achieve than simply the death of Batman. He doesn't want Batman to die a martyr or hero, believing he was right in his battle against criminals. He wants to break Bats, for him to acknowledge his own corruption, to know his pursuit for justice, his entire existence, his life, is meaningless, that it is a JOKE.

No offense to your view point, but I think the reading of Joker as impulsive, changing his mind and making random, off hand decisions as he goes along is the shallow and "at first glance" view of what is really a very calculated plot to test the "good" people of Gotham. He uses and encourages the general perception of himself as a lunatic or haphazard, mad dog against his foes, catching them, as well as the audience, off guard and masking his true, carefully planned motives, most notably in manipulation of the police at the station so he can get to Lau and escape.

I believe Joker's speech to Harvey about "do I look like a man with a plan? I'm just a dog chasing a car. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it" is complete BS. Joker has many small plans which fit into a larger overall plan from the get go. As you say, the bank robbery, getting the mob on his side, the attack on the judge, commissioner, & mayor, the Harvey & Rachel kidnapping, his capture and escape from the police, the hospital bombing as cover for Two face escaping, the overall terrorizing of Gotham and bombs on the ferries, etc are all carefully thought out plans, and each sets up the next. All part of a much larger plan to corrupt the peoples' heroes, Batman and Dent, eventually corrupting and winning "the soul of Gotham", proving his point about humanity and the belief that life itself is just one sick joke.

Customikey
07-24-2008, 07:56 PM
I don't think we need to see The Joker return for his presence to be felt in the third film. He came in, totally altered Batman's world, and can now sit comfortably in Arkham, watching the madness play out. Bringing him back isn't needed.

I do not think Harvey is dead. I think he was simply knocked unconscious. Now, whether the public is being told he's dead or not is another matter. The cover-up is bound to be exposed, and it will throw further doubt on the last perceptible light in Gotham, Com. Gordon. I think we'll see Harvey again.

I'm stumped as to an appropriate follow-up villain. I'm not sure The Joker was necessarily a more dastardly villain than R'as, just a lot more interesting. The Joker is at the tip of Batman's rogue's gallery, to say nothing of being one of the greatest villains of all time. How do you follow that up?

I love The Penguin in all his iterations, but I don't think he really fits in this universe. What I truly love about the two films we have is that they're incredibly character driven. These films run on personality and motivation. How would The Penguin fit into such a universe? I'm not keen to see Catwoman or The Riddler, either. I could see The Riddler done as a minor copycat Joker (on the level with Nolan's Scarecrow), but not as a major force to be reckoned with.

I have to say, of all the characters that Batman has an intense relationship with in the comics, the relationship I would most like to see translated tothe screen for a third film would be the one he has with Superman. Instead of falling into the one-upsmanship that the Burton/Schumacher films fell into with the villains becoming more and more outlandish as we go, bring in the Ultimate Boyscout. Make him the "hero" of the movie, and really make Batman have to deal with his new role as "Gotham's Villian." Just as The Joker is the shadowy flip-side of Batman, so too is Superman the bright mirror image of what Batman tries to be for his people.

Imagine our hero trying to do the best he can, even with an unstoppable force coming after him with the full backing of the very people he is trying to protect! And such a confrontation would also mirror nicely Frank Miller's work.

Entropy
07-24-2008, 08:44 PM
Mikey I would absolutely LOVE a Batman vs Superman movie, so much potential and it would definitely be an escalation from TDK, but it ain't gonna happen. I don't know if there's room for the Man of Steel in Nolan's "real world" approach to Gotham.

The Chaver
07-24-2008, 09:41 PM
I agree wofford, Batman did every thing he could to negate what Joker did to Harvey. By becoming the villain in Gotham's mind, he became more than a hero. Which was a wonderful conclusion to such a dark story. Though, assuming Two Face is dead, the situation Joker set up did force Batman to break his one rule not to kill. We shall see about that in a third film I suppose.



That's cool. I just don't think there's anything specific within the film to point to that supports the idea of Joker changing his mind about anything including his attitude towards Batman. He's a static character who believes the same things about himself, humanity, and the Batman and the end of the story that he did at the beginning of the story, though he is surprised in the end that Batman was truly uncorruptable, which fascinates him.

I think The Joker had already made up his mind about Batman being an equal, a worthy adversary, a kindred freak like himself, as soon as he heard about him, sometime off screen during the first film, long before we even see Joker appear in TDK. He decides to show his "brother" how wrong he is in his foolish pursuit of justice, to force his hand and make him admit what a monster he really is under all of his ethics and rules, even if it means his own death at Batman's hands. When Batman asks "why do you want to kill me?" Joker seems genuinely shocked and amused that Bats doesn't understand. "I don't want to kill you! You complete me." The implication is that The Joker also completes Batman, which Batman does not realize and is unwilling to admit.

If he really wanted Batman dead he would go about it completely differently than approaching the mob. He'd set a trap and simply kill him while he was distracted with someone else. As we later see, despite his insistence to "get paid for what he does well", The Joker has no desire for money. The Joker is after something far more difficult to achieve than simply the death of Batman. He doesn't want Batman to die a martyr or hero, believing he was right in his battle against criminals. He wants to break Bats, for him to acknowledge his own corruption, to know his pursuit for justice, his entire existence, his life, is meaningless, that it is a JOKE.

No offense to your view point, but I think the reading of Joker as impulsive, changing his mind and making random, off hand decisions as he goes along is the shallow and "at first glance" view of what is really a very calculated plot to test the "good" people of Gotham. He uses and encourages the general perception of himself as a lunatic or haphazard, mad dog against his foes, catching them, as well as the audience, off guard and masking his true, carefully planned motives, most notably in manipulation of the police at the station so he can get to Lau and escape.

I believe Joker's speech to Harvey about "do I look like a man with a plan? I'm just a dog chasing a car. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it" is complete BS. Joker has many small plans which fit into a larger overall plan from the get go. As you say, the bank robbery, getting the mob on his side, the attack on the judge, commissioner, & mayor, the Harvey & Rachel kidnapping, his capture and escape from the police, the hospital bombing as cover for Two face escaping, the overall terrorizing of Gotham and bombs on the ferries, etc are all carefully thought out plans, and each sets up the next. All part of a much larger plan to corrupt the peoples' heroes, Batman and Dent, eventually corrupting and winning "the soul of Gotham", proving his point about humanity and the belief that life itself is just one sick joke.

I totally agree with you about the Joker.He is definately not what some people think he is.And he definitely has more layers and meaning to himself,that is for sure.

Customikey
07-24-2008, 10:26 PM
Mikey I would absolutely LOVE a Batman vs Superman movie, so much potential and it would definitely be an escalation from TDK, but it ain't gonna happen. I don't know if there's room for the Man of Steel in Nolan's "real world" approach to Gotham.

That's part of the appeal for me. There's no room for idealism or primary colors in Nolan's Gotham. The city itself is a monstrous villain that can crush the spirit of any hero. The fact that Supes would be so out of place there is very compelling to me, and it feeds into the sympatico between Bruce and Clark about being outsiders each in their own way.

That was something I dearly loved about the first Spider-man movie: Peter and Norman genuinely liked each other. It was a shock to both of them to find themselves on opposite sides. That was so marvelous to watch, and the relationship between Bats and Supes is such an electric friendship/rivalry.

I suppose what I'm getting at is something that has been touched on already: the choice of villain isn't as simple as "who's the next coolest on the roster" or "who fits into the Nolan-verse?" The first consideration is always "what challenge both internal and external do we need Bruce to deal with and what character could best facilitate that?" No character but The Joker could have created the conflicts Bruce had to deal with in TDK. Put Mr. Freeze in The Joker position and it doesn't work. The Penguin, as much as a I love him, is not a true foil for Batman. The Joker is. Two-Face can be. Superman definitely is. Who else is a good foil in the Bat-verse? Catwoman? I really don't think so. What does she bring to the table? What do any of them bring to the table?

Entropy
07-24-2008, 11:44 PM
:lecture

Great post. I agree.

Catwoman could be a good foil. She's an equal physical combatant for Batman, not so for many of his villains, and as Selina gives Bruce a run for his money also and would bring the love interest aspect back to the story now that Rachel is toast. However, she doesn't really put Batman is mortal peril and is not a big threat to the entire city.

What I'd like to see in the third film is a threat to the Bruce persona. Sure Batman will be on the run, but Bruce is still comfortable in his life. Whatever villain comes along needs to be a threat to Wayne himself, similarly to Mr. Earle in BB, upping the danger for our hero in both facets of identity.

wofford29
07-25-2008, 03:03 AM
That's part of the appeal for me. There's no room for idealism or primary colors in Nolan's Gotham. The city itself is a monstrous villain that can crush the spirit of any hero. The fact that Supes would be so out of place there is very compelling to me, and it feeds into the sympatico between Bruce and Clark about being outsiders each in their own way.

That was something I dearly loved about the first Spider-man movie: Peter and Norman genuinely liked each other. It was a shock to both of them to find themselves on opposite sides. That was so marvelous to watch, and the relationship between Bats and Supes is such an electric friendship/rivalry.

I suppose what I'm getting at is something that has been touched on already: the choice of villain isn't as simple as "who's the next coolest on the roster" or "who fits into the Nolan-verse?" The first consideration is always "what challenge both internal and external do we need Bruce to deal with and what character could best facilitate that?" No character but The Joker could have created the conflicts Bruce had to deal with in TDK. Put Mr. Freeze in The Joker position and it doesn't work. The Penguin, as much as a I love him, is not a true foil for Batman. The Joker is. Two-Face can be. Superman definitely is. Who else is a good foil in the Bat-verse? Catwoman? I really don't think so. What does she bring to the table? What do any of them bring to the table?


You sound like an actor or something :D

I still stand by my original post on the first page. I think the Riddler is the best option, and in Nolan's universe I think he should be played as the type of character John Doe was in "Se7en." No kiddie riddles, some real life monsterous riddles, playing off the fact that he knows the truth behind Gordon and Batman's cover up for Dent, as a sort of bribery. I also commented on Dent in my original post, but it would all depend on if he's alive or not. Either way his spirit could resonate throughout a third film.

Les Walker
07-25-2008, 04:41 AM
Great dialogue folks! I had no idea it would go so far, and be this compelling. Hope the Nolans are taking notes. (I think they have to have an outline anyway...so suggests Goyer about the theme for the next movie...)
It's given me lots of food for thought regarding the need for Joker being in the next movie at all.
Very cool stuff.

And yeah Mikey, before all is said and done, one would almost think YOU wanted to be in the next movie....:D
(But as who???)

Just A Freak
07-26-2008, 11:34 PM
The Joker very much is a man with a plan, despite what he says. Poor broken Harvey bought into his lies. The Joker told him what he wanted to hear. The Joker desires to corrupt, to prove his point that people are inherently selfish and will "eat each other", once the thin vinear of civilization is taken away, "all it takes is a little push" and he is that force to push them. He is proven wrong when neither Batman nor the people on the ferry are corrupted, but he proves his point when he very deliberately, within his overall plan, drives Harvey, "the best of us", to a life of madness and crime. Sure he didn't count on Harvey becoming Two Face, that was just a wonderful, random bonus for him, but he did count on Rachel's death testing the supposed uncorruptibility of both Batman and Harvey. And in the end, he wins to some extent. Harvey is lost and broken and Batman becomes the murderer, at least in the minds of the people, that he swore he would never become.
See you understood it. Batman absolves the murder, and doesn't allow Joker to win in the grand scheme of things ... but this still was very much Batman's "1st loss" as Harvey was broken, and Batman is viewed through the populace as a muderer. People aren't getting that. Yes, Batman was totally selfless in covering up for Harvey, and he said he had to so the Joker wouldn't win. But Joker definetely didn't take a loss out of this. Batman didn't purely win. That's why it's such a great and complicated movie. Joker didn't corrupt Batman, but in the eyes of the people he won, because they think Batman murdered those 5 people (2 of which were cops) ...

I remember an interview before his untimely death where Heath said he'd be back to talk to a certain press member when TDK was coming out. And at the end of his message, he said "yes, the Joker does win."

And in a way, he's right. Batman ultimately did the most heroic act I've ever seen in a superhero film, but I definetely think the villain took the win in this one.

hairlesswookiee
07-27-2008, 10:10 AM
i agree and said it after watching it the first time.... the Joker won. he didn't defeat Batman, but defeated Gotham. by turning Harvey he defeated the best of the best citizen. and he didn't plan everything as it seemed he had to wing a lot of his actions. either way he wasn't completely crazy.

Starkiller
07-27-2008, 02:13 PM
We need Riddler or Bane.

bumblebee
07-27-2008, 02:22 PM
We need Riddler or Bane.



Bane please. A knightfall event would be great.

Ra88
07-27-2008, 02:23 PM
I agree with Les' points on what a sequel should be about and what it should do, but it's VERY hard to come up with a way to do those things. I would like to see Two-Face return, and become the head of the Anti-Maffia: a group of well organised vigilantes who try and destroy the heavy criminality that's an infection to Gotham, with ultimately Two-Face deciding the fate of each target.

You could also have Oswald "The Penguin" Cobblepot as an armsdealer that stirs up more trouble...Then you can have Edward "The Riddler" Nigma as the most brilliant private detective in Gotham who's hired by an unknown contractor to try and find out who Batman is (using his riddle-crimes as bait for the Bat)...You could even have Catwoman (burglar with just catears on her suit, no other cat themes?) who's aiding Riddler, while growing fond of her target and later turning from a foil into a possible aid.

But that still leaves the question of who the big bad should be...And I really can't see anyone but Bane in that role. Batman will have the entire city against him (cops, general population, Two-Face's gang, maffia, etc), and it's all orchestrated by a brilliant criminal mastermind who outclasses Batman in both psychical and mental strength, and who actually makes Batman fear for his life.

Combine all of that, and you could get a story in which Batman is driven to exhaustion as he's constantly hunted while trying to save the city from itself.

abstractharmony
07-27-2008, 02:45 PM
I think that we may already have seen the Riddler in the Nolan verse.

'Mr. Reese' (mysteries), clever, knows the Batmans real Id and had far too much screen time for a bit part.

Agent0028
07-27-2008, 02:50 PM
My cousin said she saw or read or heard or something an interview with Gary Oldman where he said Riddler will be the next villain. but obviously this is the equivalent to my best friend's roommate knows a guy who said....

RJMacReady16
07-27-2008, 04:03 PM
The Riddler is pretty lame and only translates well in the comics and the Shumacerverse.

Ras returning is crap, same goes for his daughter.

The Joker being recast is sacrilege...just use some CG work to cameo Ledger's Joker pitching in to the mayhem from the walls of Arkham if you have to.

Bane is crap, even in the comics, and Manbat is too much of a stretch for Nolan's Gotham.

The Penguin could work, but they've done the whole "crime families" thing to death now. It's time to consider some ulterior motives.

Definitely bring Two-Face back.

Catwoman in the Nolanverse would be great.

But I'm really dying to see what Nolan could do with the Ventriloquist or Clayface.

Entropy
07-27-2008, 04:08 PM
Bane = lame

Might as well have the KGBeast.

No way Nolan will go a route that dumb.

Just A Freak
07-27-2008, 06:23 PM
Why have a villain? There isn't a realistic, gritty enough character to make from the remaining villains in the rogues that is as compelling, threatning, and visceral as the Joker, Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, or the Scarecrow. Go a different route, make Batman the villain from the start. Fights the GPD and SWAT things like that, and have it be like BEGINS more of a character piece film where he's fighting to clear his name. No villain on earth is topping Heath Ledger's sick anarchic realistic take on the Joker, it doesn't get any better than that. Steer clear and go a different route.

Just A Freak
07-27-2008, 06:33 PM
So in essence, Batman would start off as the "villain" in the 3rd. As Harvey says, you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Entropy
07-27-2008, 07:02 PM
Why have a villain?

Got to sell more swag! That means a new Batmobile, probably another new suit, maybe a Batplane, and of course a couple new villains.

They're expected and pretty much required by the audience. A Batman movie without a member of his rogues gallery will never be greenlit.

I agree they'll have to go a different route with the 3rd, so that's why I'm thinking Catwoman as she's got a completely different dynamic than any of his other rivals.

Just A Freak
07-27-2008, 07:09 PM
If Nolan wants to do a movie w/o a villain at this point, WB won't care. That's how much money he's made them. He resurrected a dead in the pan franchise w/ his 1st Bat flick. Made decent profit, and now his sequel is setting box office records. They will do anything he asks at this point. You could have minor villains, but don't make it the emphasis of the film like in TDK. No one can hold their own. Catwoman? In Nolan's Gotham? Would take one hell of a re-imagining for her to be a threat in this sadistic, "world without rules" that Nolan has created. She'd get eaten alive. That's why I'd have a hard time seeing a Catwoman or a young child sidekick surviving this heightened reality. Make Batman a psuedo villain, and have maybe a new created villain ala the Phantasm who is a new vigilante in Gotham since everyone now hates Batman. And Batman has to bring to light how the new vigilante is killing people, etc. And Bats has to clear his name. Something like that. Similar to Batman Year Two w/ the Reaper. But let Nolan create his own bad vigilante.

Agent0028
07-27-2008, 07:31 PM
I don't know that people would hate Batman. The people who he gets pinned with killing were crooked cops and bad guys, so I think there are people in Gotham who still wouldn't have a problem.

Could someone expand on this whole idea of Batman as a villain? I'm a little puzzled by that one. And him versus the SWAT team was basically in the last part of TDK.

I really like the idea of a completely new villain, that would be cool.

Lord Aykroyd
07-27-2008, 07:42 PM
As Batman = the villain, you really just need to read Year One or 'Legends of the Dark Night' #11-15 the PREY story line. It is Batman versus the police and the city media. The idea seeps out that Batman is in it all for fame and glory and that he is a killer and a madman.

They are fantastic comics! PREY pretty well follows the Year One continuity perfectly.

They also both have Nolan-like realistic villains.

Entropy
07-27-2008, 08:02 PM
I'm just saying that the tone of the third film shouldn't be as dark as the second. Sure there needs to be the big threat to Gotham, Batman and Bruce stuff but it needs to be a redemption story as opposed to TDK as a corruption (or anti-corruption I suppose) story. The choice of villains should reflect that in someway.

Kabukiman
07-27-2008, 08:10 PM
The more I hear "no villian" the more intrigued I get.

Make Batman the "villian." Explore Gordon some more (please!) and his continued relationship with Gotham's most wanted. Maybe change Robin's origin story to fit this. What if **** Grayson swore to bring Batman to justice?

It could be great.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 10:02 AM
The Riddler is pretty lame and only translates well in the comics and the Shumacerverse.

Ras returning is crap, same goes for his daughter.

The Joker being recast is sacrilege...just use some CG work to cameo Ledger's Joker pitching in to the mayhem from the walls of Arkham if you have to.

Bane is crap, even in the comics, and Manbat is too much of a stretch for Nolan's Gotham.

The Penguin could work, but they've done the whole "crime families" thing to death now. It's time to consider some ulterior motives.

Definitely bring Two-Face back.

Catwoman in the Nolanverse would be great.

But I'm really dying to see what Nolan could do with the Ventriloquist or Clayface.

So wait the Riddler wouldn't work? A guy who is super smart and intelligent that would use his mind or matter to fight the bat.

But a man made of clay works for you?

Your minds is broken me thinks.....

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 10:03 AM
So in essence, Batman would start off as the "villain" in the 3rd. As Harvey says, you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

I think that line applied more to foreshadowing what happened to Harvey Dent...he didn't die, and he became a villain. Simple.

Riko
07-28-2008, 10:54 AM
Penguin, a ruthless and short crime boss in the Nolan universe...

And someone like Johnny Depp might could take on Heath's Joker mantle...maybe....it is possible for someone else to play him you know. Maybe not as well, or differently, but possible...


1) nolan does not want to cast pinguin, look at wikipedia and what Nolan said about the character...


2) why re-cast Ledger:confused::rolleyes::horror WHY recast somebody that was good just for the sake of it?
Nobody can replace ledger, Ledger is dead, and replacing the actor who played the the best villain ever is just disrespectful towards Ledger, thats like raping his memory...

only situation where there can be a joker that is ledger => some unused joker-material being used in the third movie. Nolan did want to make a 180minute feature but WB called him back, so that might be an option to see Ledger again as the joker...

Riko
07-28-2008, 10:56 AM
Why have a villain? There isn't a realistic, gritty enough character to make from the remaining villains in the rogues that is as compelling, threatning, and visceral as the Joker, Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, or the Scarecrow. Go a different route, make Batman the villain from the start. Fights the GPD and SWAT things like that, and have it be like BEGINS more of a character piece film where he's fighting to clear his name. No villain on earth is topping Heath Ledger's sick anarchic realistic take on the Joker, it doesn't get any better than that. Steer clear and go a different route.

couldn't agree more + let two face make his moves. and that's it

Riko
07-28-2008, 11:01 AM
The Riddler is pretty lame and only translates well in the comics and the Shumacerverse.


I agree, the riddler is just a lame version of the Joker if you are honest.

and the joker in TDK already had this riddler-like doings, leaving clues (the cards, the bullet, nametag,...)

and most important how can a figure like the riddler top Ledgers Joker? it seems impossible, I do not say it will not be done for sure, but it seems very impossible, they would make it to hard for themselves to make a movie that would even come near TDK..so they should let the riddler out and play safe!

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 11:06 AM
I think we can do a character piece while having another strong villain, and why does every villain need to be compared to Ledger's Joker? His Joker shows you can cast unexpected actors in roles that are familiar and have the end result be amazing. His performance shouldn't hinder other actors from taking roles in the movie as villains.

I would prefer The Riddler or the Penguin maybe...

My choice for the Penguin: Phillips Seymour Hoffman

http://www.sonyclassics.com/capote/images/capoteSplash_left.jpg

My choice for the Riddler: Jackie Earle Haley

http://www.lashorasperdidas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/jackie-earle-haley.jpg

RJMacReady16
07-28-2008, 11:07 AM
So wait the Riddler wouldn't work? A guy who is super smart and intelligent that would use his mind or matter to fight the bat.

But a man made of clay works for you?

Your minds is broken me thinks.....

Easy with casting those stones, friend. You might hit someone.

But seriously---what could they cover with the Riddler's "super intelligence" and "diabolical plans" that they didn't already master in TDK with the Joker?

And in the Nolan universe Clayface probably wouldn't be a "man made of clay"---but there's certainly an interesting story to tell there.

You can have your rock back, btw. :D

Kabukiman
07-28-2008, 11:07 AM
My choice for the Penguin: Phillips Seymour Hoffman


That's funny. Here's the Nolan quote Riko referenced earlier:

"'I'd be more excited to have Philip Seymour Hoffman in the film than to have the Penguin. There are certain characters that are easier to mesh with the more real take on Batman we're doing. The Penguin would be tricky."

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 11:14 AM
Easy with casting those stones, friend. You might hit someone.

But seriously---what could they cover with the Riddler's "super intelligence" and "diabolical plans" that they didn't already master in TDK with the Joker?

And in the Nolan universe Clayface probably wouldn't be a "man made of clay"---but there's certainly an interesting story to tell there.

You can have your rock back, btw. :D

Well there's always different motives. The Joker wanted to cause chaos and show that humanity underneath all the nice and neat stuff was just as chaotic, selfish, and harsh as he was. And he needed Batman to bounce off of, that sort of love/hate relationship.

Edward Nigma is different, for one he's not a psychopathic killer. He's very cunning, cold and calculating. The Joker and Riddler have always been similar in some aspects but that dones't make them exact copies. The Riddler does not need to be played like the Joker at all...and who knows what kind of twist Nolan could put on him? The Riddler is obsessed with intelligence and the mind. So I'm sure he'd want to be able to outsmart the bat or get into his mind and find out what makes him tick.

In terms of the Clay Face thing, a lot of Batman villains have interesting storylines but being able to pull them off and clay face's would be unrealistic, what would he do another fall from grace story like Dent? A well known popular actor gets disfigured and goes on a rampage because he is angry to get revenge? I'm sure we won't ever see Clayface.

In terms of Phillips Seymour playing the Penguin looks like I and Nolan have similar tastes.:D

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 11:58 AM
I think that line applied more to foreshadowing what happened to Harvey Dent...he didn't die, and he became a villain. Simple.
Dent did die a "hero" because Batman took the blame for Two-Faces murders.

No ... the line applied to Batman. That's why he re-iterates it at the end to Gordon. "I could do those things ... cause I'm not a hero" ... and remember the whole Roman Empire analogy to Ceasar? LOL ...

I mean the film had some deep meanings, but were you paying attention?

"You'll condem me ... sick the dogs on me ..."

"Cause he can take it."

Batman is the hero and the villain. Gordon knows he's the hero, but he took on the wrap for the muder of those people. So the citizens want his head even more. It was building to this the entire time. The citizens were mad because he created this Joker.

Batman is the "villain" now ... the 3rd film should be about his redemption. And Batman fighting cops and criminals has always been awesome. Afterall, he is an anti-hero and a vigilante.

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 12:02 PM
couldn't agree more + let two face make his moves. and that's it

Well Two-Face has been confirmed dead by the screen writer, producer, and director. Yes they could write him back in but technically it wouldn't make sense. They wrote a reaslitic psychology to this character. He's not gonna flip a coin and decide to rob the 2nd bank of Gotham on the 2nd anniversary of the day Batman captured him. haha

That's cartoonified crap. This character was more real. As you saw, he just wanted to revenge on the other members of the triumverate pack that vowed to save Gotham. Gordon specifically. And if you remember, he doesn't want to survive now. He lost Rachel, and he lost half his face on the behalf that Gordon didn't follow through on Dent's accusations of corrupt cops in his unit.

Two-Face's story arc is done. It's a tragedy, leave it at that. If he were alive, there would be no point in Batman taking his wrap. And Batman taking Dent's wrap was the most selfless, heroic act I've ever seen from one of these "superheroes" in these comic book movies.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 12:27 PM
Dent did die a "hero" because Batman took the blame for Two-Faces murders.

No ... the line applied to Batman. That's why he re-iterates it at the end to Gordon. "I could do those things ... cause I'm not a hero" ... and remember the whole Roman Empire analogy to Ceasar? LOL ...

I mean the film had some deep meanings, but were you paying attention?

"You'll condem me ... sick the dogs on me ..."

"Cause he can take it."

Batman is the hero and the villain. Gordon knows he's the hero, but he took on the wrap for the muder of those people. So the citizens want his head even more. It was building to this the entire time. The citizens were mad because he created this Joker.

Batman is the "villain" now ... the 3rd film should be about his redemption. And Batman fighting cops and criminals has always been awesome. Afterall, he is an anti-hero and a vigilante.

I have no problem with the third film being his redemption, BUT the line still applies to Two-Face, no matter IF Batman took the blame for him or not...He did live long enough to see himself become the villain, and he died a villain...trying to kill an innocent child of a once so called friend. No matter if all of Gotham thinks he was the noble white knight, he still became and died as a villain.

Batman is though generally good at heart. He fights the cops because they fight him, he doesn't want to harm them we all know that. I have no problem with Batman fighting for redemption and the cops, etc...as long as their is a major villain from his rogues gallery and by the end he's neutral again, not an enemy of the police, but not an entire friend..because he always has been a vigilante like you said.

ProgMatinee
07-28-2008, 12:46 PM
I'm not a comic reader, so I don't know how the character is written currently, but I think the Riddler as an opposite to Ledger's chaotic Joker would be interesting.

Someone funny, but with wryness and distinct preciseness in his delivery, extending to the preciseness of the crimes. Someone that almost overthinks and overplans his moves. Maybe even a slave to compulsiveness. Not a sicko "that just wants to watch the world burn" like the Joker, rather someone that can justify his compulsiveness and almost make the audience understand and symphathize and like him.

Kinda like a bad (NOT EVIL) version of Tony Shalhoub's "Monk" character. Someone so witty and eccentric that he's likable. (Shalhoub would be masterful in the role as well).

Maybe even acting in a "Robin Hood" like role for a while to get the people of Gotham on his side. Bruce Wayne gets framed for something against the city and somehow gets ripped off, so Bruce involves his Batman alterego to satisfy Bruce's own arrogance and ego and tries to take the Riddler down and make the Bruce identity look great and ends up alienating the citizens.

When The Riddler eventually ups the ante and kills one of Gotham's other beloved philathropers (or something), the fickle Gotham citizens turn and its Batman to the rescue, redeeming himself and Bruce in the process.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 12:56 PM
I've made my feelings known...I want The Riddler, Penguin, Bane or Catwoman...in the third one. IMHO they are the 4 that would fit the best in the Nolan universe and be the most interesting.

Agent0028
07-28-2008, 01:05 PM
I think the line about becoming a villain applied to Two-Face. There's no way that wasn't a bit of foreshadowing. However I think it also applies to Batman, except I think it applies to him in his struggle to not become the villain. Like not continuing to use his cell phone spy machine, not killing the Joker, etc. And I don't think it would be wrong to say the quote applies to the end of the movie either. The line, and what it was intended to mean reminds me of T. S. Eliot responding, "I didn't then, but I do now." When asked if he meant his poem The Wasteland in all the various ways it has been interpreted. And like most good poetry I think the meaning behind this line lies within whatever the viewer wants it to mean.

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 02:05 PM
No, it doesn't dude ... for the love of christ. Dent dies (the hero), Batman (lives long enough to be the villain) and as Batman states. Sometimes the truth isn't enough, people sometimes deserve more.

Ceasar was the civilian appointed to defend the Roman Empire, who later wouldn't relinquish his power and was corrupted.

We the audience, Jim Gordon, and Batman know he didn't commit the murders ... but the battle was over the hearts, souls, and ideals of the people of Gotham whom they were trying to inspire their city to take back on their own through the symbol of these two pillars of hope (The White Knight - Dent, and The Dark Knight - Batman) ...

The line of dialogue as it applies

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain

Is meant for both Dent and Wayne. Dent dies a hero to the public, so they don't lose hope (thus the memorial announcing he was Gotham's hero) ... and Batman who was already being condemed for his vigilantism after the Joker killings, takes the wrap for Dent's murders so the people of Gotham don't lose hope. Thus, Batman takes on the villain role in order to save the city.

The whole dilemma was should Batman be the hero he wants to be, or the one Gotham needs right now. At that point, they needed Harvey a public figure as a hero, and to do that selfless heroic act of letting Dent be the hero ... Batman takes the blame for the murdered cops and mob bosses.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 02:08 PM
I agree with agent more. It's totally meant to foreshadow Dent become Two-Face. He didn't die a hero (didn't die when captured by the Joker's men) and he lived long enough to see himself become the villain. This doesn't mean this quote can't apply to Batman as well...but it is first and foremost meant to apply to Dent. Him delivering the line had some much irony, despair, and heaviness...we all knew what was about to happen to him.

Entropy
07-28-2008, 02:23 PM
I think you can apply that line to just about everyone in the movie. Every one from the Batman, Dent, the cops, the people on the ferry, it's all about being tested by corruption.

A great second act. It's always darkest before the dawn - that's why the third act should be the dawn, every thing should point to a redemption story, for Bruce to accept that he must be Batman, that he cannot or doesn't want to stop, that is no longer hunted by the police and that they reinstate the Batsignal by the end of the story. Don't try to outdo TDK in terms of darkness or matching the Joker, take it someplace else. What villain would best serve a redemption story? That can even be redeemed? Two Face is the first I think of, but Catwoman skating the line between good & bad also comes to mind.

The Joker and Two Face do cast a long shadow and I'm sure Nolan will acknowledge that in the third film somehow, whether it's with cameos or just in dialogue, as they tied up the Scarecrow being loose in TDK.

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 02:24 PM
It affects both of them, and yes to some degree its forshadowing but it's maninly about Batman. That's why the film is called The Dark Knight, and why the movie is ENCAPSULATED by Gordon's monolouge at the end.

Harvey's delivering the line to Bruce, when they're talking about the Batman at the resteraunt. At the end of the film Batman is viewed as the bad guy. It doesn't mean he is the bad guy. He's actually the hero, "the one Gotham deserves, but doesn't need right now."

I think you're reffering to how it can be viewed as Dent didn't die a hero after Joker attempts to blow both him and Rachel to pieces ... then yes, he does live long enough to become the villain. But at the same time it applies ultimately to the Batman as well. This film's core revolved around The White Knight and The Dark Knight. Batman lived long enough to see himself become to the villain, and Harvey died a hero (even though he wasn't after his tragic accident) ...

Agent0028
07-28-2008, 02:25 PM
No, it doesn't dude ...

I'm at a loss for words.

ProgMatinee
07-28-2008, 02:27 PM
I don't see why the 3rd film has to be so concluding sounding as a redemption story makes it sound. Where are you after the redemption? If there's another film do you reboot the franchise again?

I think the third film should be as self contained as possible.

preeny101
07-28-2008, 02:32 PM
If we are lucky; next film:

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS

Joker dies in the beginning, anyway.

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 02:35 PM
I don't see why the 3rd film has to be so concluding sounding as a redemption story makes it sound. Where are you after the redemption? If there's another film do you reboot the franchise again?

No, just treat it like the comic books do and now the way film makers are. Let a new artist just tell a story and use any characters he wants. Whether they are dead or alive in either the Burton, Shumacher, or Nolan franchise.

Just do your own thing, and tell a great story using whatever characters you want.

The reason this is a "franchise" is because Nolan and Goyer had the idea of a 2-3 picture story arc.

Create your own continuity, the way LL did for The Incredible Hulk, and the way Nolan did for Batman Begins, The Dark Knight.

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 02:37 PM
Don't try to outdo TDK in terms of darkness or matching the Joker, take it someplace else. What villain would best serve a redemption story?

That's what I was saying ...

You could actually have "Mr. Reese" as a realistic form of the Riddler within a business situation that challenges Bruce Wayne from a business, day to day life during the day. The Riddler could be sort of a terrorizing business perspective. As sort of like a shady business man. That would be a realistic spin. He could be Bruce Wayne's hurdle to deal with. And maybe "Mr. Reese" aka Mystery aka the Riddler ??? ... haha, has help from a new mob boss looking to pick up the rest of the pieces of Gotham's open underworld landscape.

You could use Black Mask, or have Mr. Cobbelpot, a british arms dealer who sells big time weapons on the black market and has them distributed secretly through "Mr. Reese" and these new weapons are used to create havoc in Gotham?

As for Batman? I definetely think there should be a new lone capable vigilante that can match Batman physically in terms of fighting and intelligence that breaks onto the scene of Gotham. His motivation is that he tries to take up the mantle of hero after Batman being viewed as the villain after the events of The Dark Knight. And Batman has to expose him as a murderer, using his detective skills or something of that effect.

You could have this vigilante be the Catwoman, but like I said, you'd be hard pressed to come with and interesting re-telling for Catwoman that seems realistically credible with a real psychology to it ... all while making her threatning enough to be taken seriously in Christopher Nolan's super bleek world he's created.

Another noteworthy villain that I think could be made realistically and creepy in Nolan's universe is "Mad Hatter." Basically what I'd do to make him realistic is turn the volume way up on his pedophilic nature, and you'd have one creepy ass villain. Almost as shock worthy as the Joker from The Dark Knight.

But these are all just some loose ideas I'd have. We'll see if Nolan even wants to do it first. But if he does, he'll choose characters based on themes, and the underlying story he wants to tell that has deeper meaning and relevance.

wofford29
07-28-2008, 02:38 PM
Nolan has never cast a nobody in a major role in any of his films. It's highly unlikely the guy that was Mr. Reese would turn into the Riddler in a 3rd film.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 02:38 PM
If we are lucky; next film:

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS

Joker dies in the beginning, anyway.

LOL, clever title.

My friend was like yea I hope they stick with the Batman nicknames and call the next one "The Caped Crusader" I almost threw up in my mouth as how bad that sounds and doesn't apply to Batman except his 1960's incarnation.



In a third movie I feel we need all loose ends to be tied up, like Batman sort of getting back on the city's good side...not fully but enough not to be a wanted man who is hunted down. I feel Nolan only needs to do a trilogy, if done right this could be THE Batman trilogy. As the last Batman, Returns, and Forever were all all over the place. This would be the first time an actor played Batman three times in a row on the big screen and the same director made all three as well.

I feel if they kept going with this current franchise it would get stale. I'm sure Nolan doesn't want to be directing Batman films forever nor does Bale want to be pigeon holed as Batman forever...

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 02:41 PM
Not if the Riddler's role were to be that significant. Which it might not anyway. BTW, I'd like to add that Cillian Murphy was virtually an un-known when he was originally cast (actually trying out for the role of Batman) ...

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 02:44 PM
Nolan has never cast a nobody in a major role in any of his films. It's highly unlikely the guy that was Mr. Reese would turn into the Riddler in a 3rd film.

Yea...

I do want the Riddler though, he's obsessed with finding Batman's identity, and in the cops are after Batman and the man behind the mask. "Who is Batman?" Is the greatest riddle of all, so if he discovers him the cops can move in and take out Burce/Batman leaving the mob to overrun the city again. And if the Riddler strikes up a deal woth the remaining mob bosses...the plot falls into place.

Duckgoo
07-28-2008, 02:46 PM
My idea for the Dark Knight Returns:

Main Villain - Talia, Ra's daughter.
Storyline - Talia takes over Ra's organization and proceeds to:
(1) Avenge Ra's death at the hands of the Batman.
(2) Continue Ra's wish to destroy Gotham.
(3) Fall in love with Batman towards the end of the film.
(4) Someone mentioned it here, but the Joker was hired by Talia to destroy Gotham but fails, so Talia steps in to finish the job.

Batman redeems his reputation by saving Gotham from Talia, and they fall in love during their struggle resulting in the birth of his son at the end of the film. This could set up a fourth film about the son of Batman.

OK, flame away....

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 02:51 PM
My idea for the Dark Knight Returns:

Main Villain - Talia, Ra's daughter.
Storyline - Talia takes over Ra's organization and proceeds to:
(1) Avenge Ra's death at the hands of the Batman.
(2) Continue Ra's wish to destroy Gotham.
(3) Fall in love with Batman towards the end of the film.
(4) Someone mentioned it here, but the Joker was hired by Talia to destroy Gotham but fails, so Talia steps in to finish the job.

Batman redeems his reputation by saving Gotham from Talia, and they fall in love during their struggle resulting in the birth of his son at the end of the film. This could set up a fourth film about the son of Batman.

OK, flame away....

No. I'm sick of everyone wanting to destroy Gotham. For me an intention behind the Joker's chaos would sort of tarnish the character. Batman having son....not a big fan of it. Flame on!

Entropy
07-28-2008, 02:54 PM
I don't see why the 3rd film has to be so concluding sounding as a redemption story makes it sound. Where are you after the redemption? If there's another film do you reboot the franchise again?

I think the third film should be as self contained as possible.

I'm sure they will try to make a fourth, fifth etc Batman with Bale and Nolan, I think Nolan only wants to make one more, plus the classical 3 act structure is about resolution, with wrongs of acts 1 and 2 being set right. It just ends with Batman as guardian of Gotham in front of the signal. You could still have another in the series with Batman fighting whoever, the third film would just wrap up the things introduced in the first two films, namely Bruce's coming to terms with being Batman and the sacrifices that come with that. He wanted to retire the costume and have this other life with Rachel, now he's wanted by the police and she's dead. Bruce has got to deal with those conflicts of how long will I be Batman?

I can't imagine that they would leave Batman hunted by the police at the end of the third movie the way he will be at the beginning. I'm sure the Batsignal will return at the end. I think we'll also see the new Batcave and Wayne manor rebuilt as well and the new Batmobile and other new vehicle. Also, probably a new suit.

My question is if Nolan doesn't return for a 4th Batman will Bale return? I think I read him saying that he'd be back as long as they wanted him. What about Oldman, Freeman, Caine etc. returning, or will they recast everyone else and continue in the same tone Nolan established or relaunch completely fresh or move on to something else like a Bats/Superman movie or Justice League?

wofford29
07-28-2008, 03:03 PM
Not if the Riddler's role were to be that significant. Which it might not anyway. BTW, I'd like to add that Cillian Murphy was virtually an un-known when he was originally cast (actually trying out for the role of Batman) ...

Cillian Murphy unknown? If you lived under a bridge maybe.

ProgMatinee
07-28-2008, 03:13 PM
Cillian Murphy unknown? If you lived under a bridge maybe.


I must still be under a bridge.

wofford29
07-28-2008, 03:15 PM
sounds like it.

Entropy
07-28-2008, 03:21 PM
Yea...

I do want the Riddler though, he's obsessed with finding Batman's identity, and in the cops are after Batman and the man behind the mask. "Who is Batman?" Is the greatest riddle of all, so if he discovers him the cops can move in and take out Burce/Batman leaving the mob to overrun the city again. And if the Riddler strikes up a deal woth the remaining mob bosses...the plot falls into place.

Sounds ok. I like the idea of a personal threat to Wayne himself. Riddler discovering his identity could be that. Throw in an second villain who's more of a physical threat to Batman and it could work.

A super cool third Batman movie is definitely possible, I just don't think anything's going to top TDK.

ProgMatinee
07-28-2008, 03:24 PM
sounds like it.

Seriously, I googled him. I didn't realize he had a name. I only know his face. I don't think anyone considers this guy a household name.

ProgMatinee
07-28-2008, 03:26 PM
A super cool third Batman movie is definitely possible, I just don't think anything's going to top TDK.

It doesn't have to. The Wall and Wish You Were Here didn't top Dark Side of the Moon, but they are freakin awesome themselves.

Captain Britain
07-28-2008, 03:39 PM
I may be wrong, but I think Catwoman is the only villain left with the stature and originality of the Joker, Ra's or Scarecrow. The Penguin is a joke, while The Riddler is too similar to the Joker. The rest are either too outlandish or not outlandish enough. Plus, you have to count out any villains with supernatural or sci-fi elements judging by the fact that the villains so far have been 'human'. And finally, the villain has to 'mean' something contemporary - like the Joker in TDK was a kind of terrorist. I could see something interesting emerging from the character of Catwoman - a female politician or gangster, a baby-trafficker, a vice queen...

Entropy
07-28-2008, 03:48 PM
Just keep Catwoman a master cat burglar.

She steals something from Wayne Enterprises or the newly rebuilt Wayne manor that other villain, the mob and Batman all want. I'd be okay with her being a female version of Batman with gagets and fight training. The 'why' she is a thief would be the interesting part.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 03:48 PM
I'm sure they will try to make a fourth, fifth etc Batman with Bale and Nolan, I think Nolan only wants to make one more, plus the classical 3 act structure is about resolution, with wrongs of acts 1 and 2 being set right. It just ends with Batman as guardian of Gotham in front of the signal. You could still have another in the series with Batman fighting whoever, the third film would just wrap up the things introduced in the first two films, namely Bruce's coming to terms with being Batman and the sacrifices that come with that. He wanted to retire the costume and have this other life with Rachel, now he's wanted by the police and she's dead. Bruce has got to deal with those conflicts of how long will I be Batman?

I can't imagine that they would leave Batman hunted by the police at the end of the third movie the way he will be at the beginning. I'm sure the Batsignal will return at the end. I think we'll also see the new Batcave and Wayne manor rebuilt as well and the new Batmobile and other new vehicle. Also, probably a new suit.

My question is if Nolan doesn't return for a 4th Batman will Bale return? I think I read him saying that he'd be back as long as they wanted him. What about Oldman, Freeman, Caine etc. returning, or will they recast everyone else and continue in the same tone Nolan established or relaunch completely fresh or move on to something else like a Bats/Superman movie or Justice League?
Bale said he would only come back in the 3rd film if Nolan is directing...so I assume if Nolan ain't there neither is Bale.

wofford29
07-28-2008, 03:58 PM
Seriously, I googled him. I didn't realize he had a name. I only know his face. I don't think anyone considers this guy a household name.

Nor do I, but to call him unknown compared to someone like whoever the guy was that played Mr. Reese is absurd.

RJMacReady16
07-28-2008, 04:00 PM
I may be wrong, but I think Catwoman is the only villain left with the stature and originality of the Joker, Ra's or Scarecrow. The Penguin is a joke, while The Riddler is too similar to the Joker. The rest are either too outlandish or not outlandish enough.

This is why The Ventriloquist is perfect :D

drunk_leprechaun
07-28-2008, 04:39 PM
My idea for the Dark Knight Returns:

Main Villain - Talia, Ra's daughter.
Storyline - Talia takes over Ra's organization and proceeds to:
(1) Avenge Ra's death at the hands of the Batman.
(2) Continue Ra's wish to destroy Gotham.
(3) Fall in love with Batman towards the end of the film.
(4) Someone mentioned it here, but the Joker was hired by Talia to destroy Gotham but fails, so Talia steps in to finish the job.

Batman redeems his reputation by saving Gotham from Talia, and they fall in love during their struggle resulting in the birth of his son at the end of the film. This could set up a fourth film about the son of Batman.

OK, flame away....

:horror:monkey1:monkey1 sweet lord no.:banghead

kl241
07-28-2008, 05:34 PM
for those who would like to see Angelina Jolie as Catwoman...I for one would think that Nolan will come up with a story line that is far more creative than just the usual...


> 74-year-old GILF, Julie Newmar, known to many as being the best Catwoman
> that graced the small screen during the years of the campy television
> show,
> wants Angelina to play Catwoman in the third Christopher Nolan inspired
> Batman movie. Not like she's going to get a lot of say as to who is cast
> or
> even if Catwoman will make an appearance, but Newmar has been very vocal
> about stumping for Angie.
> "Angelina would own the part," Newmar has said. "My industry friends tell
> me
> (she) has made inquiries about the role. I can understand how it would
> pique
> her interest. Catwoman is Batman's one true love. She's tremendously
> popular
> with women because she's both a heroine and a villainess."

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 05:49 PM
Cillian Murphy unknown? If you lived under a bridge maybe.

When he was cast, he wasn't a "known" ... and we're talking about the context of the masses. Hell, Christian Bale wasn't a true "known" until after BEGINS. He had a cult following, but wasn't a known hollywood actor by the general public.

And when Cillian was cast, all he had was 28 Days or whatever. Hell, to this day when I show people my pic with him on the set from last year, alot of people say "who the hell is that?"

JoeSweden
07-28-2008, 05:52 PM
:horror:monkey1:monkey1 sweet lord no.:banghead
Why not the Super sons (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1401215025/theamalgamatronA/)!:lol
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-Sons)

wofford29
07-28-2008, 05:56 PM
When he was cast, he wasn't a "known" ... and we're talking about the context of the masses. Hell, Christian Bale wasn't a true "known" until after BEGINS. He had a cult following, but wasn't a known hollywood actor by the general public.

And when Cillian was cast, all he had was 28 Days or whatever. Hell, to this day when I show people my pic with him on the set from last year, alot of people say "who the hell is that?"

I've known about Christian Bale since he was a kid and he won all kinds of acclaim in "Empire of the Sun," and saw him in plenty of things before Begins. Cillian Murphy was in 28 Days, Cold Mountain, The Girl with the Pearl Earring, before Begins, and Red Eye at the same time as Begins so I think to say he was unknown is crazy, and if anyone doesn't recognize the guy after you show them a pic I think they'd be well below the general public in terms of interest in cinema. And I still stand by my statement that started this. Nolan would not cast a nobody in a major role, which any villian would be in the third film.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 06:02 PM
I've known about Christian Bale since he was a kid and he won all kinds of acclaim in "Empire of the Sun," and saw him in plenty of things before Begins. Cillian Murphy was in 28 Days, Cold Mountain, The Girl with the Pearl Earring, before Begins, and Red Eye at the same time as Begins so I think to say he was unknown is crazy, and if anyone doesn't recognize the guy after you show them a pic I think they'd be well below the general public in terms of interest in cinema. And I still stand by my statement that started this. Nolan would not cast a nobody in a major role, which any villian would be in the third film.

It's not far fetched...It's not like 28 Days Later or any of Bales movie made more than a little ripple in hollywood.

BB was their biggest movie to date and thus put them on the map...they may have been solid actors before, but hardly anyone knew about, nor cared. Bales biggest movie before BB was American Psycho in 2000, and not many people were aware of him, and he was bigger than Cillian...which doesn't say much. Just because you were aware of them doesn't mean the rest of the population was, or means they were stars.

wofford29
07-28-2008, 06:30 PM
Like I said anyone involved with cinema would know who they both were before Begins. Nothing wrong if you didn't.

edit: And Bale's biggest movie was not American Psycho before he did Begins.

Agent0028
07-28-2008, 06:42 PM
Cold Mountain is the only one I've even heard of, and I haven't seen it. But then there's no doubt that I'm below the public's average level of cinema knowledge. Hell, I didn't even know Cillian Murphy's name until the TDK spoiler thread asked if he played Scarecrow. And if I close my eyes right now I can't picture Christian Bale. :lol

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 06:42 PM
Like I said anyone involved with cinema would know who they both were before Begins. Nothing wrong if you didn't.

edit: And Bale's biggest movie was not American Psycho before he did Begins.

You can argue all you want, but it was his most well known and his biggest one to that date, and before Batman Begins. Just like Cillian biggest film and role up to BB was 28 Days Later.

wofford29
07-28-2008, 06:50 PM
You can argue all you want, but it was his most well known and his biggest one to that date, and before Batman Begins. Just like Cillian biggest film and role up to BB was 28 Days Later.

I can easily argue that, because his movies Empire of the Sun, Pochontos, Little Women, A Mid Summers Night Dream, Shaft, Captain Corelli's Mandolin, Equilibrium, and Reign of Fire all grossed circles around American Psycho. I'd say other than the very small niche market that saw American Psycho, it's his least known role to the general audience.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 06:54 PM
I can easily argue that, because his movies Empire of the Sun, Pochontos, Little Women, A Mid Summers Night Dream, Shaft, Captain Corelli's Mandolin, Equilibrium, and Reign of Fire all grossed circles around American Psycho. I'd say other than the very small niche market that saw American Psycho, it's his least known role to the general audience.

Well I consider myself general audience. Just because a movie made more does not mean he is more well known from that movie. Empire of the Sun is so old no one would remember him being in that. And to say he was more well known for Shaft, Reign of Fire, and Equilibrium is a joke...The first two mentioned bombed and Equilibrium was the only good film out of those listed. American Psycho is his most acclaimed role and most notorious before he was Batman, he was always Patrick Bateman.

wofford29
07-28-2008, 06:56 PM
And to say he was more well known for Shaft and Equilibrium is a joke.

To you maybe.

Seriously though, it's not worth debating about. I'm just making an observation, and no matter what anyone says the original point is that Mr. Reese could be the Riddler, and based on Nolan's casting in the past in everyone of his studio films, I don't think it's even a possibility.

Starkiller
07-28-2008, 07:04 PM
To you maybe.

Seriously though, it's not worth debating about. I'm just making an observation, and no matter what anyone says the original point is that Mr. Reese could be the Riddler, and based on Nolan's casting in the past in everyone of his studio films, I don't think it's even a possibility.

Anything is possible.

We could poll SSF forums to see if they remember Bale from American Psycho more or Shaft if you want?

Just A Freak
07-28-2008, 07:34 PM
I've known about Christian Bale since he was a kid and he won all kinds of acclaim in "Empire of the Sun," and saw him in plenty of things before Begins. Cillian Murphy was in 28 Days, Cold Mountain, The Girl with the Pearl Earring, before Begins, and Red Eye at the same time as Begins so I think to say he was unknown is crazy, and if anyone doesn't recognize the guy after you show them a pic I think they'd be well below the general public in terms of interest in cinema. And I still stand by my statement that started this. Nolan would not cast a nobody in a major role, which any villian would be in the third film.

Yeah, YOU knew who he was because you were a big movie fan ... many people didn't. Bale was barely known before BEGINS, and Cillian Murphy? Even more of an un-known. Nolan casts people on their acting abilities. Not how well known they are or not. You're crazy if you think Bale was some superstar and so was Murphy before or even after casting of Nolan for BEGINS. They were relative un-knowns by the general public.

wofford29
07-29-2008, 03:58 AM
Anything is possible.

We could poll SSF forums to see if they remember Bale from American Psycho more or Shaft if you want?

That would make sense if you wanted to poll one little niche market of people that collect Sideshow. We all know that's a good representation of the general audience.


Yeah, YOU knew who he was because you were a big movie fan ... many people didn't. Bale was barely known before BEGINS, and Cillian Murphy? Even more of an un-known. Nolan casts people on their acting abilities. Not how well known they are or not. You're crazy if you think Bale was some superstar and so was Murphy before or even after casting of Nolan for BEGINS. They were relative un-knowns by the general public.

You can keep arguing all you want, you've stated your opinion, and it's obvious you're just a casual moviegoer. Like I said there's nothing wrong with that. I don't see the need for you continually just reposting what I know and feel already. You didn't know him and don't think many did, I did know him and think that plenty did. You have your vantage point, and I have mine, let it go.

DinoLast
07-29-2008, 04:34 AM
It's been announced on SKY news that Angelina Jolie has been in talks for the role of Catwoman.
I would like to see Catwoman in this latest franchise just to repair the damage done by Halle Berry's movie.

carbo-fation
07-29-2008, 04:35 AM
I've known Bale for many years. He's been one of my favorite actors. I enjoyed the Machinist, Equilibrium and American Psycho and pretty much all of this newer movies such as 3:10 to Yuma and Rescue Dawn. And Cillian Murphy gave me the creeps in Red Eye. Dude's got quite a scary face.:google

wofford29
07-29-2008, 04:46 AM
It's been announced on SKY news that Angelina Jolie has been in talks for the role of Catwoman.
I would like to see Catwoman in this latest franchise just to repair the damage done by Halle Berry's movie.

Please no. I can't watch her in anything.

DinoLast
07-29-2008, 05:50 AM
Please no. I can't watch her in anything.

Watch GIA That will change your mind:woo

wofford29
07-29-2008, 05:54 AM
Watch GIA That will change your mind:woo

Seen it unfortunately. I'm in the minority group that finds her far to creepy to be attractive. I also think her name outweighs her acting ability, so no matter what she's in, I can't see past Angelina Jolie.

Agent0028
07-29-2008, 07:25 AM
I don't care for Angelina Jolie either, so maybe that's why I don't really see her doing well in the Catwoman role.

Starkiller
07-29-2008, 08:06 AM
I feel sees too big of a name to do...It seems they are basing it off looks and not acting abilities? I hate when they put her little stick frame in action films and expect me to believe she can do all of these stunts and tricks...lame!

She's only good for her ASSets.

wofford29
07-29-2008, 08:30 AM
If they do a catwoman Rachel Weisz would be my vote

http://i37.tinypic.com/2s1u7g5.jpg


If they do Riddler Paul Bettany would be my vote
http://i34.tinypic.com/aktvk0.jpg

THE JOKER
07-29-2008, 10:34 AM
Im with you.

ProgMatinee
07-29-2008, 10:36 AM
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/11/47/0000041147_20070705173330.jpg
The Riddler
He's funny AND a good actor and since he's older he brings something totally different than the upstart role that the Joker had.

Starkiller
07-29-2008, 05:59 PM
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/11/47/0000041147_20070705173330.jpg
The Riddler
He's funny AND a good actor and since he's older he brings something totally different than the upstart role that the Joker had.

No way Jose!:confused:

TolkienCollector
07-30-2008, 07:03 AM
I'm not a big comic fan, but as a very young kid back in 60's I got my love of the Bat from the TV series :naughty:naughty:naughty

I don't care who they cast/what characters they use, just as long as they make more. Lots more, then even more.

MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I left the cinema totally baffled as to why Two-Face was dead so soon :google:google Having read this thread, I'm a bit less confused :D

When's the DVD due?!?!?!?!?!?

TC :duh

Starkiller
07-30-2008, 09:18 AM
DVD and Blu-ray are coming this fall.

Blackhole
07-30-2008, 10:29 AM
It's been announced on SKY news that Angelina Jolie has been in talks for the role of Catwoman.
I would like to see Catwoman in this latest franchise just to repair the damage done by Halle Berry's movie.

What movie?

There's never been a Catwoman movie starring Halle Berry...

HAS THERE???

*Loads gun*

A-1188
07-30-2008, 10:46 AM
Did two-face survive the fall? He kind of looked dead to me in the end of the movie.

tomandshell
07-30-2008, 10:52 AM
Kate Beckinsale or Rachel Weisz would be good bets for Catwoman, as Nolan likes to cast Brits as Americans.

So for the same reason, Paul Bettany would be a good choice. Nolan's not going to go with someone "funny" for the Riddler. He will be scheming and diabolical.

Still, they need to go in a somewhat different direction after the success of this film, so as not to repeat themselves unsuccessfully.

BlindVoyeur
07-30-2008, 10:57 AM
My take for Batman:Redemption

"Out of the Darkness a hero shall rise"

A limited role of Harley who as nurse at Arkham falls for the Joker (Played by Brad Dourif) and helps him escape. Much to his delight Batman is hunted by both the Law and the criminals. He also discovers that Harvey isn't dead just being locked away to protect the "coverup". He lauches a master plan that envolves breaking out Harvey and Scarecrow from Arkham to bring Gotham to its knees. He realises by going public with Harvey and exposing the coverup, the public will loose hope and turn on the law because of what they did. Gordon and his team could be torn between the reign of terror and the state of anarchy the is quickly brewing. The Scarecrow could be envolved in drugging Batman in an elaberate ruse to believe he murders on of them in a fit of rage, thus turning to Batmans anger inward and has to find a way all cost stop the reign of terror and find himself again then show the people of Gotham why the events played out as they did. Possibley bring in Catwoman as a master thief who for some reason is tragectally affected by the Joker and is hell bent on revenge upon him possible setting up for an "unholy" alliance with Batman.

Well thats a rough sketch anway,
Ryan

tomandshell
07-30-2008, 11:00 AM
I don't see the Joker being brought back. What actor would want to take on the role after seeing what Ledger accomplished? It would be as shunned by the audience as Julianne Moore's Clarice Starling.

ProgMatinee
07-30-2008, 11:00 AM
Kate Beckinsale or Rachel Weisz would be good bets for Catwoman, as Nolan likes to cast Brits as Americans.

So for the same reason, Paul Bettany would be a good choice. Nolan's not going to go with someone "funny" for the Riddler. He will be scheming and diabolical.


"Funny" is a requisite for the Riddler. But that doesn't mean they need to go over the top lsilly and stupid ike Jim Carrey. puke

They need to make the character witty and clever.

tomandshell
07-30-2008, 11:04 AM
I was thinking of the actor, not the character.

Don't cast a "comedian."

Ledger's Joker had a dark humor and that can happen without casting a "funny" actor like Jim Carrey.

Captain Britain
07-30-2008, 11:20 AM
I'm not sure there are any villains left that fit in Nolan's Bat-universe - only Catwoman. I'd love to see her played not as a catburglar in a leather catsuit, but as an older, female gangster - played by Nicole Kidman in a no-holds barred super^^^^^ role.

ProgMatinee
07-30-2008, 11:21 AM
I was thinking of the actor, not the character.

Don't cast a "comedian."

Ledger's Joker had a dark humor and that can happen without casting a "funny" actor like Jim Carrey.

I don't want the Riddler to be Joker copy cat. Thats why I think they should make the Riddler as an almost "deceptively nice and likable" character. A criminal but with funny quirks and compultions but decidedly not someone to be feared like The Joker. Someone the citizens of Gotham embrace like Robin Hood, who they think is just burning the rich boys like Bruce Wayne, but turns out he's really robbing all the citizens or robbing the rich to finance some destructive machine that threatens everybody.

Zoolander
07-30-2008, 12:13 PM
I think the Penguin would work well, although I don't think he should be directly referenced as 'the penguin' phillip seymour hoffman would do a fantastic job portraying him. The riddler would also be a very interesting character to watch onscreen

Just A Freak
07-30-2008, 12:27 PM
Ledger is not getting re-cast, nor should he ever in Nolan's set of films. Ledger is his Joker. Definitively.

Zoolander
07-30-2008, 12:45 PM
I don't think that is even an option.

automaton
07-30-2008, 01:24 PM
I don't see the Scarecrow really in the next one. The cameo in this one was a waste. If there is a cameo from TDK it'll be Two-Face, other than that I see this being self contained completely. The last act of most 3 part plays is "redemption" I have a feeling this will go that route. Look for someone like Dent to play out his Justice flips still having to do with Gordon or someone like Black Mask whose alter ego has a legitimate problem with Bruce Wayne and would be looking for his own redemption. The play on that will be the key to figuring out the villain. Redemption for Batman but also other characters looking for that as well.

i wouldn't call Scarerow's appearance a waste... look how the mighty have fallen... the presence of the bat has reduced Scarecrow to a measly drug dealer...

ProgMatinee
07-30-2008, 02:43 PM
i wouldn't call Scarerow's appearance a waste... look how the mighty have fallen... the presence of the bat has reduced Scarecrow to a measly drug dealer...

Plus. Its a nice harkening to the comic and cartoons that the Batman villians are never in prison...lol.

Riko
07-31-2008, 09:36 AM
since EVERY little single thing you can read now on the net is PURE SPECULATION and none of it is REAL, we might as well fantasize meanwhile :)

this is how catwoman should apear if she will make it to the third part and if the third part will come:
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_01.jpg
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_03.jpg
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_04.jpg
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_05.jpg
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_06.jpg
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_02.jpg

Bianca Beauchamp for Catwoman! :banana

Agent0028
07-31-2008, 10:08 AM
How the heck does she walk in those shoes?

cerealkeller
07-31-2008, 10:38 AM
In all honesty, I don't know who I want to see, or what I want to see in a third Nolan film. I think Nolan should bring it back to Batman's redemption sure and make him more the focus of the film, him getting lost in this beast he's created and Alfred, Fox and Gordan trying to pull him back. As for villains, I just don't know. Who would best serve the redemption story because thats what a villain would have to serve. I do wish Two-Face was still around and the Joker. I do think Nolan could recast the Joker and I don't like having to see anyone but Ledger play the Joker because now he is the Joker to me, but people die and thats life. But if he got someone like Benicio Del Toro or someone who is also fearless to take on the role it could work. I also think Nolan is going to have a hard time topping this and don't think he can with me as he used my two favorite villains in TDK. I wish Two face was saved more for the 3rd film, but then we wouldn't have the best ending to ever happen in cinema. I honestly couldn't believe I would ever see a scene so dark and touching and scary as when Harvey had a gun to Gordons' sons temple and forcing Gordon to tell him it's going to be okay. I was at the edge of my seat and actually wanted to yell at the screen "Let him go!!!" Thats what a great movie should do is get you personally and emotionally invested in the characters and the story. Please oh please Nolan return and prove me wrong about not being able to top this masterpiece !!

Riko
07-31-2008, 10:57 AM
How the heck does she walk in those shoes?

she doesn't have to, she uses her whip all the time to swing :)

Riko
07-31-2008, 11:00 AM
In all honesty, I don't know who I want to see, or what I want to see in a third Nolan film. I think Nolan should bring it back to Batman's redemption sure and make him more the focus of the film, him getting lost in this beast he's created and Alfred, Fox and Gordan trying to pull him back.

the idea of a "redemption" theme only makes me veeery curious :)

Starkiller
07-31-2008, 11:01 AM
So you want Catwoman to look exactly like she did in Batman Returns? She's a thief, obviously 7 inch heels aren't very practical and neither is skin tight vinyl as it smells weird, is hot, and makes funny noises when you move.

CelticPredator
07-31-2008, 11:18 AM
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_04.jpg

There is something extreamly wrong about this picture....

Starkiller
07-31-2008, 12:14 PM
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_04.jpg

There is something extreamly wrong about this picture....

Is that even milk? :monkey5

wofford29
07-31-2008, 12:23 PM
This would be the Catwoman in Nolan's universe...

http://i37.tinypic.com/2dh8sd5.jpg

Riko
07-31-2008, 12:56 PM
So you want Catwoman to look exactly like she did in Batman Returns? She's a thief, obviously 7 inch heels aren't very practical and neither is skin tight vinyl as it smells weird, is hot, and makes funny noises when you move.

when somebody posts something like that, do you really think he's serious? seriously, why so serious?

and to be honest, I do not care wich villain will be playing in the rumured 3rd part, I really am curious about the THEME

in Begins it was: Fear
in TDK it was: Escalation
in 3rd part it should be: Redemption, Bruce Wayne being obsessed with his Batman-personae and goes extreme...but his friends who try to pull him back. Fucus on BATMAN

ProgMatinee
07-31-2008, 02:30 PM
Redemption to me just screams conclusion. If we're ready to put Batman on hiatus again, by all means do the Redemption angle. But if we're hoping for part 4 anytime soon, I think they need to do something less final.

wofford29
07-31-2008, 02:33 PM
I think Nolan is done after 3 based on his past interviews about the franchise, and if Nolan isn't attached Bale said he doesn't want to do it, Oldman didn't even want to do this one and said he guesses he'll have to come back for a 3rd, so I think if they make a 3rd, it'll definitely be the end of the road for those 3, and quite frankly I'd be happy if they never made another Batman film for 20 years after those 3 leave.

ProgMatinee
07-31-2008, 02:47 PM
Fair enough.

I personally think they should do 1 really good flick with each major villian. I suppose 2 villians a time is fine like parts 1 and 2. So that leaves 2 if not 3 more films.

Starkiller
07-31-2008, 05:37 PM
Fair enough.

I personally think they should do 1 really good flick with each major villian. I suppose 2 villians a time is fine like parts 1 and 2. So that leaves 2 if not 3 more films.

Ra's, Scarecrow, Joker, and Two-Face have been done..and that only leaves like 3 villains in terms of your rationality?

Batman has so many awesome villains in his rogue gallery...The Riddler, Catwoman, Mr. Freeze, The Penguin, Man Bat, Clay Face, Hush, Holiday, Mad Monk, Hugo Strange, Killer Croc, Mad Hatter, Clayface, Poison Ivy, Bane, the Ventriloquist, Harley Quinn, Fire Fly, Lock Up..etc...

Agent0028
07-31-2008, 08:28 PM
Poison Ivy could be cool for a villain. Just thinking out loud here so these ideas may suck. Obviously to make her more realistic alot of the plant angle would have to be out, but she could be an assasin who uses rare plant poisons to get at her victims. Another bigger villain could be pulling her strings similar to Begins, although I would make it clear that she is working for someone else from the start so it isn't too much like Begins.

Just A Freak
07-31-2008, 09:24 PM
http://www.funpic.hu/babelog/catwoman/catwoman_04.jpg

There is something extreamly wrong about this picture....

It doesn't get any more right than that for a heterosexual young man.

:rotfl

cerealkeller
07-31-2008, 09:45 PM
I think Nolan is done after 3 based on his past interviews about the franchise, and if Nolan isn't attached Bale said he doesn't want to do it, Oldman didn't even want to do this one and said he guesses he'll have to come back for a 3rd, so I think if they make a 3rd, it'll definitely be the end of the road for those 3, and quite frankly I'd be happy if they never made another Batman film for 20 years after those 3 leave.

Agree 100 percent. I think Nolan should do one more and conclude his holy trilogy. I hope he makes one more on the same level of quality as Begins and TDK, and sort of conclude his Batmans story arc with his redemption. That would leave it at the end with the Batman we've known for years but never told his origin in such a way. I view TDK as still Batman and Gothams origin story and by the time Nolans done, he'll sort of bring us to the definitive Batman. The crime fighter, detective, the Dark Knight. And I'd also be happy to see someone in another ten years do their own spin on the character, but if we don't get that or they hire someone who doesn't get the character, we can always be happy that we got 3 Batman films that we'll be able to point to and say "That's how you do Batman!"

RJMacReady16
07-31-2008, 10:04 PM
Although I don't think Nolan's films will be surpassed for many, many years to come---I certainly don't want the series to end after he's through with it.

Give it to someone else and see what they can do with it. Maybe there's a good enough "beginning" now that we won't have to suffer through another Shumacer and any future installments will somewhat follow suite with these.

DarkArtist81
07-31-2008, 10:10 PM
I just want them to do a decent Riddler eventually and a decent Mr. Freeze. I've heard people say that Freeze is too cartoony to be done, but I disagree. My custom figure disagrees. :lol

If they can pull off Two Face, a cartoony character in his own right... I think they can do Freeze. In fact, I will go ahead and say they could almost do any of the main villains justice. It just takes a keen mind to bring them into reality and retool the origins to fit in the Nolan Universe. It can be done.

cerealkeller
07-31-2008, 10:26 PM
Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to end, I love Batman and Gordon and their villains, for me personally, my favorites are Two face and the Joker. It's just those two are so linked to Batman and bring out the best stories ever told in comics. I realize other villains can be done, but none have the impact these two do unless you count Ras Al Ghul who I would like to see brought back, but would somehow take away from the realistic universe Nolan set up. I can see Talia, but even her character wouldn't have as much impact without her father being there. I can only wait and see what happens, just don't want it turned into "Batman 6: Look, we really need more of your money". What Nolan gave us is special and I don't want it tarnished. That's why I'd rather wait ten years for someone else to put their spin on the character.

Starkiller
07-31-2008, 11:04 PM
I just want them to do a decent Riddler eventually and a decent Mr. Freeze. I've heard people say that Freeze is too cartoony to be done, but I disagree. My custom figure disagrees. :lol




I don't think it;s the look of Freeze just the idea of a guy walking around freezing stuff.

hairlesswookiee
07-31-2008, 11:13 PM
I just want them to do a decent Riddler eventually and a decent Mr. Freeze. I've heard people say that Freeze is too cartoony to be done, but I disagree. My custom figure disagrees. :lol

If they can pull off Two Face, a cartoony character in his own right... I think they can do Freeze. In fact, I will go ahead and say they could almost do any of the main villains justice. It just takes a keen mind to bring them into reality and retool the origins to fit in the Nolan Universe. It can be done.
i'd also like to see the Riddler redone. hopefully not like the goofy one like we saw in Batman Forever, but i want to see him as an older fella with glasses, suit, and tie that has the "Ben Stein" smarts...not the spandex glow in the dark suit. and i think Nolan said in an interview that he wants to veer away from the unbelievable comic villains and stick more with the human ones. which means no clay face, man-bat, poison ivy (which i think he specifically said no to).

automaton
08-01-2008, 01:51 AM
when somebody posts something like that, do you really think he's serious? seriously, why so serious?

and to be honest, I do not care wich villain will be playing in the rumured 3rd part, I really am curious about the THEME

in Begins it was: Fear
in TDK it was: Escalation
in 3rd part it should be: Redemption, Bruce Wayne being obsessed with his Batman-personae and goes extreme...but his friends who try to pull him back. Fucus on BATMAN


the 3rd part should be "Duty"... he isn't really obsessed with his persona and was willing to abandon it... he has now taken the world on his shoulders by his choice and the film would do well to explore the consequences.

Riko
08-01-2008, 02:45 AM
Redemption to me just screams conclusion. If we're ready to put Batman on hiatus again, by all means do the Redemption angle. But if we're hoping for part 4 anytime soon, I think they need to do something less final.

I think to top TDK he MUST go for a redemption theme...a theme less extreme is just impossible to top TDK...and if Nolan were to make this one a 3hours movie, it could really take and end with that movie :)

Riko
08-01-2008, 02:48 AM
Fair enough.

I personally think they should do 1 really good flick with each major villian. I suppose 2 villians a time is fine like parts 1 and 2. So that leaves 2 if not 3 more films.

that is pushing it...that reminds me on the Schumacher way

just go for quality, not quantity...
for the third movie the theme is more important than the villans, if they could recycle Two face and MABYE use some unused joker material from the TDK I would be glad, do not push just to introduce a new villain. It is not a must.
Most important is the batman-struggle..focus on the hero. He will have enough trouble with the police you know...

3rd and last movie, no 4th and 5th :rolleyes:

customizerwannabe
08-02-2008, 06:30 PM
They'll revisit the Joker. It's inevitable. Probably a long ways down the road though. Ledger's death is still too fresh and tragic to even think about a successor right now.

Les Walker
08-02-2008, 09:05 PM
Redemption. Perfect theme.

Lots of villans? You bet! Never been done since 1966 and that was silly. Time to do it up right.

Catwoman, a night prowler that only Batman ever sees. She makes news, but no one else ever sees her, only Batman. For the public, maybe fleeting descriptions, but no photos. And it ends with Batman/Bruce never knowing who she really is and she helps him after some finale, and he can't find her again. And she is not all bad. Something kinda sad or forlorn. Haunting even. Her story could almost be a minor subplot aspect.

Riddler, older actor. I actually originally thought of Terence Stamp, but then thought, no, why not go to someone Nolan has worked with. Either David Bowie, or go younger, and get Guy Pierce. And he is THE dangerous one of the plotline. The one Gotham City needs Batman's help with, openly.

Penguin, just a mob type, club owner guy, who hates his nickname and is one mean mutha. Worthy of Batman villain status. Think an older, fatter, shorter Michael Corleone type. Mean as hell. Must show up at least in a small role.

Ra's must return somehow. I think the chaos is all his doing. Ultimately. Be a great third act surprise.
Talia, love interest, but not gonna work out...be a good one though.

Scarecrow, back maybe...if he can be more.

Harley, maybe. Could be ok alone. Just in memory of the Joker. Was a fan. Has pictures of him around. Videos. Or, less likely, the recasting of Joker, but I sense what everyone else is saying, that would be incredibly unpopular. I rescend my idea of him being recast.

Bane? Nah!
Croc? I wish, but nah!
The Ventriloquist? Maybe. Kinda be cool with Nolan's love of magic industry imagery.

Two-Face is back? Maybe, but I am beginning to think he'd be redundant. He's done his best stuff already. No new territory other than new makeup, maybe more healed, and a snazzy new split suit, but not much else. More of same makes Harvey a dull boy. I say he doesn't show.

Mr Freeze? My favorite Batman villain, so of course I would be OK with it, but in Nolan's world, he would have to be just some nut that sprays liquid nitrogen on people, doors, etc., and is only dangerous, but not some blue "cold guy" thing. Just a nut with a nitrogen freeze gun. Unlikely he will show in this universe any time soon. Could though.

Hugo Strange, Dr Death, any of the mad doctors? Not too likely. Strange could...maybe....

More Maroni and assorted thugs? You bet! I sure hope so. LOVE Them being around.

Look for the return of the batsignal at the end, and an iconic Batman standing pose at the end, as he came at the camera in Begins, away from it in DK, and now, he makes his stand. Just a thematic difference in ending imagery.

Oh, and Batman goes grey and black. More traditional this go round.
More Dark Knight comics imagery. We won't see him much at first, hands through walls grabbing crooks, more sneaky stuff like his first appearance in BB. Cops after him like in Year One comic. That sort of stuff.

More scenes with Gordon in his office.

More detection.

BIG finale. Huge. Biggest yet.

Just some guesses.

wofford29
08-02-2008, 09:50 PM
I think people are going to be surprised at the villian, if Nolan does a 3rd film. Nolan and Goyer both have already stated that the next villians will definitely not be Catwoman or Penguin...


Batman screenwriters David Goyer and Jonah Nolan have responded to claims that the baddies in Batman 3 will be Catwoman and The Penguin by saying that the baddies in Batman 3 definitely won’t be Catwoman and The Penguin. They’ve got a whole raft of other villains to chose from, so why pick the two most obvious?....
“In the first movie we use Ra’s Al Ghul and The Scarecrow, who had not been in the movies before, and had not been in the sixties TV show before. And there are dozens if not hundreds of other characters that fit that bill. Everyone says its gotta be The Penguin or Catwoman… well I completely disagree.”

It sounds to me like they have a lesser known rogue in store.

turtlepower73
08-02-2008, 09:56 PM
i look at if they make another movie after this. it will not love up to the dark knight it will flop due to high expectations that people put on films. even chris nolan the director has hinted that he doesn't see how another movie can out due this one.

The Mike
08-14-2008, 02:41 AM
I found this fan made image online that is nicely done....

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/kryptonianmike/Pic%20Examples/w8t0sx.jpg

Zoolander
08-14-2008, 03:30 AM
great image and foreshadowing

Riko
08-18-2008, 02:08 AM
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/2900/bat3illustrationpu0.jpg

Moonloop
08-22-2008, 08:35 PM
The studio is set to announce its plans for future DC movies in the next month. For now, though, it is focused on releasing four comic-book films in the next three years, including a third Batman film, a new film reintroducing Superman, and two movies focusing on other DC Comics characters. Movies featuring Green Lantern, Flash, Green Arrow, and Wonder Woman are all in active development.

-- http://www.superherohype.com/news/supermannews.php?id=7609

Zodach
08-25-2008, 08:11 AM
It's going to be hard to top TDK, but I'm sure Nolan and crew can deliver on another quality film.