Who is the real champion?

[BuffyGirl]

Who do you think is the real champion, Angel or Spike?

I love Angel, very much, but in this case I believe it's Spike.

Even when Spike had no soul he was still capable of being a good person. He still fell in love with a girl who was human and he went looking for his soul.

When Angel was soulless he was pure evil to the core. He could care less about anyone. He would laugh as someone died.

I realize that Angel while ensouled was a good man. He helped the helpless (and charged low 'rats') as much as he could.

But Spike helped even when he was soulless. He did have a chip yes, but he could have made the choice to still be bad, forget the innocent and move on and cry in his crypt. He didn't. He fell for a girl, and he helped. If it was possible with Buffy it could have been possible with another.

This is a guy who when soulless went looking for his soul. Angel would never have done that. He loved having no soul. He loved being bad.

I think that Spike was the true champion of the people. Soulful and soulless.

[The Craw]

the difference is that spike wasnt being a "peoples champion" when he was evil. he was just trying to get in buffy's pants.

[BuffyGirl]

But his character went thru changes. It was not all about that for him in the end. He was able to change even before a soul. His love for Buffy just got in the way sometimes. He grew so much in such a short time, because of her. he did it for her, but in the end, it was a beneficial thing for all.

[Anzik]

In the end Spike was doing it for selfish reasons. Bad Karma.

[The Craw]

But his character went thru changes. It was not all about that for him in the end. He was able to change even before a soul. His love for Buffy just got in the way sometimes. He grew so much in such a short time, because of her. he did it for her, but in the end, it was a beneficial thing for all.im not seeing it. the last thing he did before getting a soul was trying to rape buffy. he was always obsessed with buffy.

[TheObsoleteMan]

I think Spike loved being evil just as much as Angelus, he just wasn't nearly as good at it. After having his *** handed to him repeatedly by Buffy and getting neutered by that brain chip, he took the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach.

In the end, Spike may have fought the good fight, but it was Angel who not only fought, but inspired others to fight.

[The Craw]

yeah even in season 5 of angel when doyle/lindsey is helping spike save people he's still a big **** about it.:lol

[The Mike]

All these questions missing their polls....gotta go with Angel in terms of the classic definition of a champion although I liked Spike more.

[Murderofcrows71]

Have to go with Angel......Otherwise why give him a spin off series?

[Nitro]

Have to go with Angel in this case as well...

[BillyBudd]

Spike is the real champion.

Angel has done some pretty awful things WITH a soul. For example, he walked away and allowed demons (vampires, I think) to kill a bunch of the Wolfram and Hart employees. I can't remember for sure, but I think he even locked them in. That's just one example.

Spike is kind of a jerk, but now that he has a soul, when it comes time to act, he pretty much always does what is right.

[Anzik]

Those were lawyers so technically Angel was doing a good deed for humanity.

[TheObsoleteMan]

Spike is the real champion.

Angel has done some pretty awful things WITH a soul. For example, he walked away and allowed demons (vampires, I think) to kill a bunch of the Wolfram and Hart employees. I can't remember for sure, but I think he even locked them in. That's just one example.

Spike is kind of a jerk, but now that he has a soul, when it comes time to act, he pretty much always does what is right.

That's because Spike is a follower. He sits back and waits for others to do the right thing and then follows suit. When you're a leader fighting a war, sometimes you have to do distasteful things. Angel doesn't have the luxury of running in after all the dirty work's been done.

[Anzik]

Angel DID get the soul first.

Copycat.

[The Craw]

Angel DID get the soul first.

Copycat.well technically he didnt "get" his soul. it was forced on him.:D

[Anzik]

Touche. He HAD a soul first.

[Badism]

In the end Spike was doing it for selfish reasons. Bad Karma.

im not seeing it. the last thing he did before getting a soul was trying to rape buffy. he was always obsessed with buffy.


It was because that event that he seeked his soul. He wanted to understand why it was wrong what he tried to do buffy, why it hurt her. People forget, he was evil, he had no choice about it...EVIL. All he knew when he went into that bathroom was that buffy would resist then give in and have sex with him, just like before.

He sought his soul to become good for buffy and to be a real person. No other Vampire in history ever wanted to be anything other then a souless evil monster, including Angelus.

Spike was special.

That being said Angel is good person and true champion. Maybe after Spike has had his soul for 100 years he too will become a true champion. People seem to think Angel was in that ally eating rats, being tortured by his soul for 90 years. He was not. He did find a sort of peace for most of the 20th century and led a somewhat normal existence. It wasn't until he had that moment of weakness and fed off that dead diner clerk that he became the tortured "stink guy"

Give Spike some time. He's only had his soul a couple of years.

[Bradlee_scott]

Spike's a tool, Angel rules!

Angel, obviously. For one, the term champion was coined on Angel. Two-Spike was just a lovesick pup, that's why he did all those things on the side of right, just to be Buffy's bit*h.

[Badism]

Spike's a tool, Angel rules!

Angel, obviously. For one, the term champion was coined on Angel. Two-Spike was just a lovesick pup, that's why he did all those things on the side of right, just to be Buffy's bit*h.

You, obviously are a Spike hater and missed the entire point of his character journey.

[Bradlee_scott]

I proudly admit it. I understand he had a journey and whatnot and I know I am leaning hardcore Angel, but the way I see it is Angel is the original. He had a soul before it was fashionable, and he was the original champion. That's just how I see it.

And I am not a Spike hater. I can appreciate his journey, but I just prefer to ignore the season 5 and 6 spike. It made me sick. He lost all of the things I loved about him.

[Anzik]

Spike had one of my favorite lines in the whole series:

"I might be love's ++++++, but at least I'm man enough to admit it."

[Protozaius]

In the end, Spike may have fought the good fight, but it was Angel who not only fought, but inspired others to fight.

I think that is a key distinction.

[Bradlee_scott]

I will say, Spike did spawn one of my top 5 favorite quotes ever.

Buffy-What are you doing, five words of less.

Spike- out for a walk... bit*h

[Badism]

I think that is a key distinction.

Angel was not very inspiring the first 90 years he has his soul. Again, give Spike some time. :rolleyes:

[TheObsoleteMan]

Yeah, Angel did spend a long time coming to terms with his guilt for all of the suffering he caused. Apparently, that wasn't a big problem for Spike.

[Badism]

Yeah, Angel did spend a long time coming to terms with his guilt for all of the suffering he caused. Apparently, that wasn't a big problem for Spike.

What are you talking about? The first thing Angel did was go back to Darla and begin feeding on humans again (evil do'ers) He then spent 70 years in america living a fairly normal life (for a vampire with a soul :lol), which included Hanging with the brat pack, doing missions for for the military (in which he fed on and turned a human being into a vampire) Abandoned a hotel full of people to be eaten by a demon and fed off a dead human being. And that is only the stuff we know about. It was only after he fed off the dead man he became tortured to the point of living in allys and feeding off rats.

Why do you think Spike, after only TWO years of having a soul doesn't feel guilt? Because Angel said he doesn't? I got news for you...Angel doesn't like Spike. :lol

Another thing, Angel has a hell of a lot more to feel guilty for, like more then a century's worth of torture and slaughter. Spike also had more of a support system around him, good people. First the scoobies, then the fang gang. Angel surrounded himself with evil vampires and then later withdrew from others all togethor.

Spike had been conditioned by his pain chip for 3 years not view humans as food anymore. So when he did get his soul he had not fed on a living human being for that long. Let us not forget that he went insane for 4 months due to the guilt he felt. He got better thanks to Buffy's help and people hold that against him?!....whatever.

Lastly, The guy freakin sacrificed his life to save the world! Was that selfish? Was that to get in Buffy's pants?? NO, he was a good guy, he was a hero...he is a champion. Sure, he has an attitude, but that makes him cool in my book and no less the champion. Biased Spike haters get over it. :monkey5

[Anzik]

Spike is the archetypal anti hero. He is definitely a champion or else he couldn't have worn the sunshiney amulet.
Also Spike has a more black and white view of the world than Angel. He summed that up with Robin Wood when he explained to him that Nikki was a Slayer, Spike was a vampire. Thats the way it is. Thats also why Spike's morality was more ambiguous than Angel's.
Angel certainly made some cold, heartless decisions but I think he was always aware of the cost each time. Not that Spike wasn't aware, just not as concerned by it.

[BillyBudd]

Those were lawyers so technically Angel was doing a good deed for humanity.

I know you're partly joking, but many people conveniently ignore ensouled Angel's missteps, some of which are quite serious. Badism mentioned one from the episode "Are you Now or Have You Ever Been." Angel allowed a bunch of humans to be taken by a demon after they attempted to kill him. The people believed that Angel was responsible for the demon's hauntings. This event took place in the Hyperion Hotel back in the 50's. Sure, Angel had just been wrongly accused and attacked, but a true champion walks the high road.

[Anzik]

Oh I agree. i think this needs a qualifying statement of "Who was the champion at this time in the story"
Because clearly they have both exhibited champion and not so champion behavior.
Thats what makes the characters 'human'. Its like asking someone if they would ever kill a child. Of course no one would do that (we hope) but then you say what if you could go back in time and kill a young Hitler, you might get a different answer.

[Badism]

I know you're partly joking, but many people conveniently ignore ensouled Angel's missteps, some of which are quite serious. Badism mentioned one from the episode "Are you Now or Have You Ever Been." Angel allowed a bunch of humans to be taken by a demon after they attempted to kill him. The people believed that Angel was responsible for the demon's hauntings. This event took place in the Hyperion Hotel back in the 50's. Sure, Angel had just been wrongly accused and attacked, but a true champion walks the high road.


That's what I'm saying. Robin Wood attacked Spike, tried to kill him, but in the end Spike spared him. The high road.

I'm afraid some of the opinions here and elsewhere are from people who only watched a handful of episodes or they are biased. When you bring up facts you suddenly get silence. :lol

And to quote Spike's Buffy bot.... "Angel is lame. His hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid" :lol

[Bazookajoe007]

Think about this; Angel was cursed with a soul, not his soul. So was the good that Angel did really a product of his own heroism or is it to be attributed to this soul's influence on him?
Spike fought for his soul. Spike fought in order to give Buffy quote;" What that +++++ deserves". What he wanted to give her was a man capable of loving her, a man with a soul. True, he fought evil for her sake, but he gave up his life for her sake, is that selfish?
As I remember, Angel was a champion so he could make up for the great evil that he did. Spike became a champion for the love of a woman. Which motive is more pure? Which motive is more selfish?

[The Craw]

im pretty sure angel was cursed with his original soul. the soul of liam, since he can remember his family and stuff.

[Murderofcrows71]

Yeah I had read in an article years ago in an interview with Joss Whedon about the whole internet Angel Vs. Spike thing. Where he basically came out and said he appreciated the ideas in season 5 and 6 that Spike and Buffy would end up together, but he never intended it to end that way. Angel and Buffy would always be the main heroes.

[Badism]

im pretty sure angel was cursed with his original soul. the soul of liam, since he can remember his family and stuff.

You're correct. Liam's soul is the one that Angelus was cursed with.

[Serpentor]

Think about this; Angel was cursed with a soul, not his soul. So was the good that Angel did really a product of his own heroism or is it to be attributed to this soul's influence on him?
Spike fought for his soul. Spike fought in order to give Buffy quote;" What that +++++ deserves". What he wanted to give her was a man capable of loving her, a man with a soul. True, he fought evil for her sake, but he gave up his life for her sake, is that selfish?
As I remember, Angel was a champion so he could make up for the great evil that he did. Spike became a champion for the love of a woman. Which motive is more pure? Which motive is more selfish?

I dont think Spike was after his soul, what I gathered from that was he was after what he once was, he wanted to be the ruthless Slayer killing vampire he was once. He was doing it so he could kill Buffy not so she would love him. Now its been a while since I saw the last seasons of the show, so if it was somewhere confiremd that he was fighting to get his soul back then ignore my crazy rantings. But that's what I got from it when I saw that episode.

Angle is legitamtley trying to do good, Spike did it to get with Buffy and then most likley just to spite Angle.

[The Craw]

I dont think Spike was after his soul, what I gathered from that was he was after what he once was, he wanted to be the ruthless Slayer killing vampire he was once. He was doing it so he could kill Buffy not so she would love him. Now its been a while since I saw the last seasons of the show, so if it was somewhere confiremd that he was fighting to get his soul back then ignore my crazy rantings. But that's what I got from it when I saw that episode.

Angle is legitamtley trying to do good, Spike did it to get with Buffy and then most likley just to spite Angle.actually joss said he was fighting for his soul all along but the viewer was supposed to think he was trying to lose the chip. he called it a "plot twist".

[Serpentor]

Very good then, never read or heard any intreviews on the subject or commentaries. All I had was what I recalled from the episode.

[The Craw]

Very good then, never read or heard any intreviews on the subject or commentaries. All I had was what I recalled from the episode.its brought up in the "academy of television arts and sciences discussion" feature in the season 6 dvd i believe.

[Serpentor]

Thanks, I'll make a note to check that out when I get around to picking up season 6 on DVD.

[The Craw]

Thanks, I'll make a note to check that out when I get around to picking up season 6 on DVD.its a great roundtable discussion about season 6. i remember this part because joss was saying he invented the "plot twist" with an air quote gesture. pretty funny.:lol

[blue_rogue]

I think it remains to be seen who the real champion is. Who knows if we'll ever find out though...