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Protozaius
07-24-2005, 09:49 PM
Although no one else has noted it... I was delighted to see that the head on the Conquest Caesar was in fact a totally new sculpt and not Cornelius. I have a few issues with the likeness... but still it was great to see that there was an attempt to capture Caesar uniqueness. I'm sorry I don't have photos... mine didn't turn out so well. I wished Sideshow could update the pre-order listing to feature the new likeness. Though I would doubt that it would effect sales any. Does anybody else have photos to share?

Well,Caesar is going to be the last ape (not including the final two Mutants) in what I believe was a GREAT 12" LINE!!! I would like to thank everyone at Sideshow for making this line happen... especially, thank you Mat for your talent and for making sure that a quality Ape figure got into this damn dirty human's hands. I just had to wait 30 years for it to happen.

It's a period of collecting (allbeit short) that I will never forget! .:banana :banana :banana

ironman1188
07-25-2005, 05:14 AM
Well,Caesar is going to be the last ape

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!
Is this true?? This is the first I've heard this. Does that mean that the license is up? Will it be available for another company to pick up and offer the figures that Sideshow is ignoring? Can another company do like Sideshow did with Hasbro?
If this is true it is truly a sad day in the 1:6 world. :cry

warlock664
07-25-2005, 07:00 AM
WOW, I hope this isn't an OFFICIAL announcement; I was looking forward to Sideshow producing at least a few more figures, primarily Cornelius & Zira Ape-O-Nauts, General Aldo, and Virgil. I have been concerned, however, as to all appearances sales seem to have been unimpressive ( have you seen how low the figures have been selling for on ebay? And I recently picked up 3 MIB Gorilla Soldiers for only $60.00!). So do you see, ironman, how much damage your vendetta against "Brent" has caused! :lol

ironman1188
07-25-2005, 07:10 AM
Brent sucked [but I'll still get him] ...but the apes?
The apes RULED!!!!!!
I actually had noticed an increase in some of the ape prices on ebay lately. Three for $60 is great. I wish I had seen that so I could expand my garrison. I've noticed the gorillas go up to $24.95 and the whole apes go to $34.95 each.
I didn't get a newsletter last week, was this mentioned in there? Can someone send me a copy?
:bang if this is true I may have to take serious action

warlock664
07-25-2005, 07:31 AM
Hey ironman, I got the Gorilla Soldiers from www.drtoyscloseouts.com last week (this company also sells on ebay), though I just checked and they've raised the price to $25.00 from $20.00 ( they still have some of the other apes at $20, so the Gorillas must have been selling well - I bought them to bulk up my ape army!). I wish Sideshow would have produced a couple variations on the Gorilla for variety, or the "Back-pack Gorilla" from "Beneath", but I'm extremely happy we got what we did. The "end of the line" hasn't been announced in the newsletter, as far as I know. Maybe this is all premature.

BTW, I bought both versions of "Brent", and while far from perfect, I thought the sculpt was decent. Not spot-on, but close enough to resemble Franciscus, IMO. My BIGGEST complaint with Brent was that they used the "taller" male body for him, the same one used for Taylor, and since the Brent head has a longer neck, he's actually a bit taller then Taylor. If you recall the movie "Beneath", Brent is noticeably shorter than Taylor ( by 6 inches or so). WHY didn't Sideshow use the shorter male body ( the same one used for the apes) on Brent? :dunno

Viking28
07-25-2005, 07:50 AM
As it was said in the Chat the Ape line is pretty much done.

Morgan the Raider
07-25-2005, 07:53 AM
I liked the Brent sculpt too, Warlock. Wasn't perfect, but it was pretty damn good.

As for the end of the line...

In one of the chats a Sideshow employee, I believe Brant, said that the line was something to the effect of "all but over." I didn't read this myself, but one of the other boarders had mentioned it in another thread.

Hopefully that means there will be another 12" or two. I'm not too optimistic though.

Protozaius
07-25-2005, 11:05 AM
When I was at SDCC, I had a long conversation with Mat Falls, the talented sculptor who is LARGELY responsible for making the whole Ape line a reality. Here's what info I got from the exchange:

1) The 1/4 scale figures I was yearning for NEVER were sculpted. They NEVER went into any prototype stage... if it did HE would have sculpted it. He also stated he would have loved the opportunity to sculpt them in the bigger scale, hoping to even experiment with real hair on them. He thought that due to the bulk of hair on the Apes, sculpted hair wasn't the right way to go for them. For me, this will go down as one of the great lost opportunities in the collecting world... 1/4 scale Apes!

2) The reason why Brent doesn't look like James Franciscus is because, plain and simple, they couldn't secure the rights to the actor's likeness. The actor's estate is VERY protective of his legacy. You will also note that the "classic" picture of Brent and Nova coming out of the tunnel on the box has been blurred as well. Mat felt that having Brent look the way he currently does would be better than having no Brent at all. I, for one, agree with Mat. The "Sideshow Brent" looks GREAT next to the Beneath Taylor and Nova! Thanx, Mat!

3) Lastly, I asked if there are any figures he has sculpted for the line that hasn't been unveiled... and he stated that all that is shown here (at SDCC) is the last... there is NO MORE APES PLANNED. Immediately, I chimed in about longing to have the three Ape-O-Nauts, it would be a relatively cheap piece to produce... they could even re-use both Zira and Cornelius heads AND make one suit three times. He thought that would be a good idea, but the fate of the line is out of his hands. However, he said reassuringly that "you never know" with the future of a line when it comes to Sideshow. Look at the Buffy line. However, the Apes don't have the release of DVD box sets in the marketplace to generate interest in the property or any plans of a new movie. So, it's easy to guess the line's future.

So, I don't think it's a question of losing the license, I think it was a choice made by Sideshow to stop. They probably retain the right to make them for some point in the future... but whether they do it before the rights lapse is anybody's guess. SO, as officially as he can make it... the Ape line (like the Twilight Zone and Outer Limits lines) is now frozen.

He was VERY firm that Sideshow had to put the brakes on after the low sales numbers. Mat said quite honestly that he thought there were more Ape fans out there willing to purchase them than there were... and that he would personally love to extend the line IF the interest was there. I told him that I thought it was strange that BOTH exclusive versions Ursus and Caesar have yet to sell a mere 500 pieces since February. And the exclusive version of Zaius is STILL available. He seemed just as shocked about that as I was.

Again, I would like to thank Mat for the great talk... it was one of the highlights of my time at the Con this year. And for his talent that he brought to bear on a GREAT 12" line. He even allowed me a quick peek of the Mutant leader under the mask... VERY cool!

And for Apes fans, I also went to the Palisades booth hoping to find the prototypes of THEIR Ape line... the 4" Ape figures announced at Toy Fair. They stated that they are still culling reference materials for the sculpts and doing research for th line. I sure hope they weren't watching the sales of the 12" Sideshow Apes as part of their research. But, I have a funny feeling that they were. Different price point but still, it doesn't look good for Ape fans.

ironman1188
07-25-2005, 12:33 PM
As it was said in the Chat the Ape line is pretty much done.

NOOOO!!! Damn you!!! God DAMN you all to hell!!!!

Warlock, yeah, DrToys is where I got mine, but I noticed the increase. There was indeed alot left to do with the property.
Now, as for Brent.....
Everyone's been annoyed that I can't let go that a company like Sideshow, known for their likenesses, provided the Brent at hand. It is not a bad sculpt. BUT, and this was my big hangup all along, its NOT Franciscus!!
Why someone could not have said:

The reason why Brent doesn't look like James Franciscus is because, plain and simple, they couldn't secure the rights to the actor's likeness. The actor's estate is VERY protective of his legacy. You will also note that the "classic" picture of Brent and Nova coming out of the tunnel on the box has been blurred as well. Mat felt that having Brent look the way he currently does would be better than having no Brent at all. I, for one, agree that Mat.
That I can appreciate a helluva a lot more than well the licensor approved it and its in production. I wouldn't have been pleased but its a lot easier to see what happened [just like Colin Clive]
As for the license, I didn't mean to imply that they lost it. I was more asking if this presented another company the opportunity to pick up the ball and run with it like Sideshow did with Star Wars.
I do find it kind of humorous that the gorilla, the most generic sculpt of the apes seems to be selling best.
As for Brent's height? That is an easy fix with a head transfer. Tailoring his uni to fit might be another story altogether though.
I am truly saddened that we'll never see an ape-o-naut, General Aldo, Virgil, MacDonald, Breck, Young Cornelius[Caesar's son], Virdon, Burke ,Galen or General Urko. As well as so many others.

warlock664
07-25-2005, 02:19 PM
"As for Brent's height? That is an easy fix with a head transfer. Tailoring his uni to fit might be another story altogether though"

Normally, I'd agree with this, except the "Slave Brent" came with a bandage around his abdomen as well as "dirt" deco ( it also has the larger feet as with Slave Taylor, though this would be easy to transfer). Also, other than the Apes and Quasimodo, what regular caucasian figures been manufactured with the shorter body?

ironman1188
07-25-2005, 02:28 PM
I've found almost any DML or DiD body to be shorter than Sideshow's body. And wrapping his stomach and dirtying him up shouldn't be difficult.

screamingmetal
07-25-2005, 02:30 PM
Very disappointing to hear it's almost or is over. I would have bought the all the Ape-o-nauts for sure. :(

dstephan
07-25-2005, 02:35 PM
The Oz's have the shorter male body.

creecher
07-25-2005, 10:44 PM
Nice post Protozaius. It's good to know one way or the other what is happening. Were you at the party?

I think someone from Sideshow should have stepped up to the plate and told us that Brents property was so closely protected. It would have saved us alot of anxiety with Ironman making such a debacle about it. ;) Don't get me wrong Ironman, you had every right to point, but to prod, :poke well, like that icon, it was relentless. I think you were set up. Brant was that you're doing? I wish Dusty could cam us in on his innocent face right now. :whip :lol

ironman1188
07-26-2005, 04:55 AM
I think someone from Sideshow should have stepped up to the plate and told us that Brents property was so closely protected.

Exactly!! I was told how much more needed the Sideshow reps are to have here than me. OK, but if they can't step up on the important things why be here? Yes, Creecher, I may have been relentless, but.....How many "debates" did it begin where finally a Sideshow VIP would show up, insult me, or tell me to let it go, etc...? None of them could have stated it was a likeness property issue? I find that odd.

customizerwannabe
07-26-2005, 06:32 AM
I just came back from the Dragon Expo in Atlanta. Picked up all 4 apes, 2 different sideshow Bonds, most of the Civil War Generals for around 17.00 each. I think the prices may have bottomed out on the apes.

ironman1188
07-26-2005, 06:52 AM
Apes for $17!!!!?????!!!
Somebody hook a monkey lover up!!!! [waitaminute, that didn't come out right :lol ]

Protozaius
07-26-2005, 02:19 PM
It's good to know one way or the other what is happening. Were you at the party?

Yes, I did arrive at the party... pretty late, my brother and I got hopelessly lost for awhile, GEEZ! We arrived just in time to see the box game played out and watch as some lucky bastard nabbed the 1/4 Hellboy! Well I didn't leave empty handed... I got a hat.


How many "debates" did it begin where finally a Sideshow VIP would show up, insult me, or tell me to let it go, etc...? None of them could have stated it was a likeness property issue? I find that odd.

I find it strange too. It's strange how Sideshow keeps everything so close to the chest... especially when it would, in the case of Brent, actually benefit them to tell us the truth. Same was true about my constant inquiries about the 1/4 Apes. The only official word I got was "mum is the word" instead of the truth which was "no, we never sculpted them". Would it killed them to tell me the truth?

In some strange way, though, I am relieved that I finally have my answer on the 1/4 Apes... even though it wasn't the answer I wanted to hear... a sense of closure, I guess.

dstephan
07-26-2005, 03:18 PM
I could be wrong on this but I'm sure no one at SCC will correct me if I'm - but it could be that there are certain things that they won't or can't say publically because of the licensing deals.

The last thing a licensor wants is a fan to go around them and complain to the licensee about a product. So they keep stuff like "we don't have likeness rights" or "we're not doing everything we said we'd do" on the down-low.

This is just conjecture on my part but working in a related industry I could understand this attitude if it is true.

ironman1188
07-26-2005, 03:25 PM
We accepted, begrudgingly, that the Colin Clive likeness was not able to be licensed, but they couldn't trust us with James Franciscus?
I would think either estate should be tickled pink to realize that anyone even remembers these guys.
And, if they can't tell us "anything", then this isn't much of an interactive forum with the SSC highbrows.

rentu
07-26-2005, 05:12 PM
well this whole thread is a bit of a downer as i love the line and the apes movies, however the good news for me is that i didn't realize the limited zaius was still avalible! So one is on the way now :banana

creecher
07-26-2005, 07:26 PM
I am glad that I now know the truth. I was steering clear of Brent, due to the obvious. Now I want to get him. I know that may come across as dumb, I have no problem with my own fickleness. When I get him is, now, my only problem.

:wilkommen Rentu.

ironman1188
07-27-2005, 05:01 AM
Its not fickle at all Creecher.
I would think a lot of others may have preordered or ordered one had they known an exclusive that actually looked like Franciscus was not going to be possible. Honesty up front counts for a lot and makes everything easier and smoother all the way down the line.
And for any of you that bought Brent or Taylor and might be unhappy with their ANSA suits, email me :D
I need 6-7 more of them.

Protozaius
07-27-2005, 10:08 AM
i didn't realize the limited zaius was still avalible! So one is on the way now

I'm glad I was able drum up some business for ole Dr. Zaius! :banana :banana :banana

The exculsive version of Zaius is one of my favorites since it was the first Sideshow Ape I got AND it's the figure is from my favorite scene in the whole film series... the scene from "the Cave" in the first film. I have my exclusive Zaius holding the human doll fom the Cornelius figure.

ironman1188
07-27-2005, 10:16 AM
and to get back to the header subject...Anyone have pix of the new Caesar sculpt??

rentu
07-27-2005, 05:17 PM
well it isn't the best shot but its the only one i have...

web-student.coleman.edu/~web5916/ape.jpg (http://web-student.coleman.edu/~web5916/ape.jpg)

got my zaius already today, still got to open him though

:ted

well it won't show the image on the board but its not too much work to click on the link i suppose ;)

Protozaius
07-28-2005, 09:34 AM
It's funny... with all the attention Sideshow got for their new Star Wars products, their 1:1 busts and their exclusives table there was no more "love" left (and no more film left apparently) for the Conquest Caesar.

LONG LIVE THE KING!!!

I think I was the ONLY one hovering around the Apes Display! It probably won't be there next year.

ironman1188
07-28-2005, 12:51 PM
I think I was the ONLY one hovering around the Apes Display! It probably won't be there next year.

Maybe we'll get fortunate and the display will be at someone else's area.

Protozaius
07-28-2005, 09:35 PM
Maybe we'll get fortunate and the display will be at someone else's area.

I think we have to wait awhile for that to happen.

screamingmetal
07-30-2005, 03:49 PM
Sideshow just posted detailed images of the new head sculpt For Conquest Caesar here!:
www.sideshowtoy.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=apes_12&item=75121 (http://www.sideshowtoy.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=apes_12&item=75121)

88th division
07-30-2005, 05:02 PM
It is possible that SS is halting this line to put more resources toward the Star Wars 12 inch line. Any thoughts?

dstephan
07-30-2005, 05:40 PM
It is possible that SS is halting this line to put more resources toward the Star Wars 12 inch line.
As we know, anything is possible, but it's also possible that Zira, Cornelius and Zaius didn't sell through their extremely modest edition sizes and SSC didn't want to throw good money after bad.

Some licenses make sense and others don't. As passionate as we are about our favorite movies or TV shows there may not be enough other fans out there that are also into these types of items to support the lines.

Viking28
07-30-2005, 07:04 PM
Did Caesar look like this?

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/mas_assets/jpg/7512_image02.jpg

ironman1188
07-31-2005, 05:51 AM
A perfect example of how figures appearances vary by angle. He doesn't look all that accurate in the above picture but, to me, this looks very much like Caesar from the end of the movie where he delivers his speech:

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/mas_assets/jpg/75121_image03.jpg

WestBatman
07-31-2005, 08:58 AM
I'm not impressed with this sculpt. Here is a photo of Roddy in the Ceasar makeup:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/westbatman/Ceasar.jpg

There was a 1:6 scale resin kit called "Long Live the King" of Ceasar with a much btter likeness by Jim Phillips. I'll pop a shot of it and post it soon.

Andy

ironman1188
07-31-2005, 02:43 PM
Hmmmm, its been a while since I've seen that kit, but memory doesn't have it better than Sideshow's. I look forward to seeing a pic of it again.

WestBatman
07-31-2005, 04:03 PM
showing Sideshow's, the actual subject, and Jim Phillip's sculpt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/westbatman/comparison.jpg

I added a scan of a magazine with a completed kit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/westbatman/magazine.jpg

I apologize for the bad photo of the resin kit head, it was real quick on a cheap camera. Both sculpts have good and bad points about them but I still like it Jim's better than SS's. Just my opinion though.

Andy

screamingmetal
07-31-2005, 04:09 PM
Thanks for the comparison photos WestBatman. other then the hair line on Sideshow's being too height on the forehead, the sculpt is pretty close. also, the paint ops are wrong on the Sideshow version, but that could be due to Sideshow looking at untinted photographs of the Caesar makeup.

ironman1188
07-31-2005, 04:12 PM
I think if Sideshow's were painted like the model version it would be almost perfect.

Bonehead15
07-31-2005, 06:45 PM
I think the new sculpt looks great. I agree though that the hairline is a little off.

ironman1188
07-31-2005, 07:20 PM
But....is that model kit head available?? :D

Protozaius
07-31-2005, 10:15 PM
I've seen a lot of garage resin kits from POTA over the years... none of them really did anything for me. Including this one which I saw at a collectibles store in L.A. a few years back.

Although it's a bit flawed... frankly, I prefer Sideshow. I think the eyes have RODDY written all over them!

And, although it is not screen acurate, I do like the fact that Caesar does have the toe shoes. Fox couldn't afford the multitude of Apes in "Conquest" to have them back in 1972 but SIDESHOW CAN!!!