Taboo against toys of controverial historical subject matter

The recent release of the 3R/DiD "German Chancellor 1899-1945" figure has had me thinking a lot about the subject of toys versions of controversial historical figures and subjects.

Is there a line that should be drawn in what sees production? What does it say about us when we purchase and display an Adolf Hitler figure in our collection? (Disclaimer: I own the 3R Hitler figure, but in no way endorse National Socialism/Fasism as an ideology. I'm fully aware of what the Nazis did, and made the visit to Aschwitz/Birkenau to bear witness as best I could, since I firmly believe that those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it).



Why do we even feel the need to make disclaimers like the one I made above? It's not like anytime someone talks about their Freddy Kruger dolls they feel the need to disavow any enthusiasm for raping and murdering children.

I've seen toy versions of Andrew Jackson, Fidel Castro, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and his dead and decomposing son, and Jack the Ripper, and seen people get terribly offended that the toys exist in the first place. {Also, see here.)

What's absolutely off limits? I was talking about this with my girlfriend, and the most unacceptable subject for a 1:6 historical toy we could think of would be concentration camp inmates. The thought is just horrible. But what if the inmates were rebelling, armed and looking defiant? Would that make the subject more palatable? Are action figures art, and does art always have to make us feel good?

(Yes, this post betrays that I'm a sociology geek.)

Wow, I totally made this post before I saw the Hitler Jugend figure from DiD....

I don't have a problem with Hitler or Bin Laden or Huessein being made. But I think its fine to make it. I'd even be okay with the concentration camps, although I would never buy one. I think the place I would draw the line is where its something really offensive or promoting the evil, like if Bin Laden came with a severed soldiers head or something like that. I think the dead and decomposing son fall under that category too. EDIT: I realized the way I structured the sentence early I didn't complete my thought and it came across wrong.

And what the hell's wrong with an Andrew Jackson figure?

I think that the motivation of who is making the figure needs to be looked at. With DiD and Drastic Plastic the figures are meant as collectible and historical. They do not push doctrine or ideology and attempt to produce a representative figure... no more no less. What I think is messed-up is exploitation of historical events.

Like the link you have to Saddam's son, they are clearly trying to make a quick buck at the expense of another's death and suffering. Not to say some people aren't bad or whatever, but a figure glorifying an execution or assassination is in bad taste and (IMO) going too far.

But of course we live in America and people have the right to make things I think are offensive and I have the right to think they are A-holes for it

And for the record I own the Drastic Plastic Hitler and the Armoury Saddam.

Andrew Jackson was included in your list? I feel bad for wasting 25 seconds of my life reading your post.

I don't think he meant that Andrew Jackson was offensive to him, I'm guessing that maybe he heard someone else say it was offensive. At any rate I don't think he was saying anything negative about Jackson.

Agent0028 said:

I don't think he meant that Andrew Jackson was offensive to him, I'm guessing that maybe he heard someone else say it was offensive. At any rate I don't think he was saying anything negative about Jackson.

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I'm not sure how I really feel about Jackson. He did have a fair amount of culpability for the Trail of Tears, but I don't think that responsibility can be as directly attributed to him for that atrocity as you can for Hitler or bin Laden's misdeeds.

I think it's hard to really make a judgement about the relative morality of historical events, and it gets harder the further into the past you go, as we're further removed from the mindset of the people involved. Mass extermination of people that are not like you apparently used to be considered an awesome solution to problems.

VaderAl said:

Andrew Jackson was included in your list? I feel bad for wasting 25 seconds of my life reading your post.

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My list was based on figures that I've seen someone make a fuss about, not necessarily me. The only figure on the list I personally have an issue with is the Uday Hussein.

galactiboy said:

Like the link you have to Saddam's son, they are clearly trying to make a quick buck at the expense of another's death and suffering. Not to say some people aren't bad or whatever, but a figure glorifying an execution or assassination is in bad taste and (IMO) going too far.

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Agreed. I'm not overly fond of the "Dope on a Rope" Saddam the same company makes, either... I'm not down with deriving humor from anyone who is executed, no matter how much they suck.

I kind of do want to make a diorama of a rabbi kicking "orator" Hitler in the nuts, though. Kicking jerks in the nuts is always funny.

Nothing is taboo. That a toy/figure raises feelings to the surface is part of collecting these items. Feelings need to be addressed, confronted and re-evaluated from time to time. That an event in history took place can be conveyed aurally as well as visually. To sterilise it would be the sin. If you go changing history we are bound to repeat it, or no?

Good point about the Trail of Tears Metaphorge, I was being a bit ethnocentric in not thinking about how Native Americans have been treated in the past. I guess it is an effect of schools glossing over some of the less savory actions in American history. Passage of time may have a bit to do with it too. WWII is still very fresh in people's mind, whereas the trail of tears and reservations and all the other bad things that have been done is in the "distant past".

Agent0028 said:

I was being a bit ethnocentric in not thinking about how Native Americans have been treated in the past. I guess it is an effect of schools glossing over some of the less savory actions in American history.

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I have to say I'm charmed by the honesty in that reply. It's something each person in every country and of any culture does.

My grandmother's brothers were in Flossenburg. They were members of the resistance here in Belgium untill they were ratted out and the community saw dozens of their youngsters arrested, brutalised and tortured and finally deported. One of these brothers was beaten to death in the camp for trying to pick up a few coffee crumbs in starvation. The tragidy cut a wound in the family and I was educated with these horror stories my entire youth.
I'm sure the surviving brother would shiver in disgust if he saw that the rock he brought home from the camp for my grandmother is now displayed amongst a few nazi figures in my cabinet.
He would be unable to understand that owning a figure like that is just a way to represent this capital chapter in my country's history and that of my family. Just as displaying that particular rock is.
I would have bought 3R's Hitler if the likeness had been better. I will buy the Hitlerjugend figure, no matter how perverse the ideology behind this institution was. These kids died and bled on the streets of Berlin hopelessly defending what they were brought up to believe in. We should at least grant them the respect not to be forgotten.
My point being that it's all in the eye of the beholder. Judge for yourself wether you feel rightfull displaying something but don't resort to fingerpointing. I think the wave of repression that hit liberated Europe proved how unjustified that is.

Doomhammer said:

...These kids died and bled on the streets of Berlin hopelessly defending what they were brought up to believe in. We should at least grant them the respect not to be forgotten.
...

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Indeed, that is one way to see it. But what if these kids joint the HJ because they didn't have a choice, and thus didn't die "hopelessly defending what they where brought up to believe in". They probably died in fear, and asked themselves, "my God, what is happening? How did I got entangled in this? Yesterday I was just playing with my mates, and today they send me to war!"
Anyway, it is best that we never forget those war crimes, but I seriously doubt that putting one of those HJ figures on a shelf (not refering to you here Doom, you do as you please), or any other Nazi military figure for that matter, is the right way to do it.
Nazi symbols are strictly forbidden in Germany, and other European countries merely tolerate them to a certain point. A lot of people here in Europe will think twice, before they start putting Nazi figures on their mantelpiece, because they know very well how people will take it. Nazi insignias and objects are a sensible matter here. Unfortunately we Europeans still have to deal with extreme right winged idealists on a daily basis.
I understand that collecting militaria has a great fascination to certain people, but I always wonder if it's out of historical interest, or out of admiration for the beast.

No Nazi figures for me. Out of respect for those that suffered, still suffer, and died because of the Nazi's.

They wouldn't have been John Rambo's but I think you underestimate the power of brainwashing on children. Like clearly seen with the african child soldiers, naivity is the most powerfull ally of indoctrination.

Alice Adrenochrome said:

out of admiration for the beast.

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Frankly I'm having trouble to believe that more than a neglectible small number of people still admire the beast. And they are generally marginal and frustrated people. It's more often a way for adolescents to draw attention, while they hardly begin to comprehend the horror of the history behind it. Racism is a very prominent problem but not necessarily tied to neo-fascism at all.

In the end, as long as this discussion keeps going and as long as a lot of people are having reservations about this kind of figures, I suppose we're still on the right track really. Never again.

Alice Adrenochrome said:

A lot of people here in Europe will think twice, before they start putting Nazi figures on their mantelpiece, because they know very well how people will take it.

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I'm a lot more interested in how someone voted and what they have to say on political matters than on what they have on their mantelpiece when determining what someone's political viewpoint is.

Alice Adrenochrome said:

Unfortunately we Europeans still have to deal with extreme right winged idealists on a daily basis.

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Unfortunately we Americans do as well... their viewpoints are simply not as marginalized in a number of regions in this country as they are today in most European states (well, at least central and western European states). Unfortunately these people don't tend to conveniently label themselves with any sort of "I'm a fascist" insignia. The beast is subtle here, but it is stirring.

Doomhammer said:

n the end, as long as this discussion keeps going and as long as a lot of people are having reservations about this kind of figures, I suppose we're still on the right track really. Never again.

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That's what it really boils down to in my mind. How can all the points that need to be repeated keep being sounded? I'm of the opinion that every high school student in the US should have to watch Schindler's List to be able to graduate. It's a start.

Fat chat that would happen, though.

I think if the person is a historical figure, and it's done in good taste (nothing like Hitler with burnt Jew- pardon me just wanted to give an EXTREME idea of poor taste) than I see no problem. Bring on the dictators, they're just as important in history than the "hero's" of history. Sadam, Adolf, Osama, Stalin Andrew Jackson (major kudos for bringing him into this, I'm not some crazy anti-America leftist, generally quite the opposite, but why's he on our money?) Slobodan Milošević, Che Guevara (yes, he killed a lot of innocents SURPRISE), bring them.

The responsibility goes to the collector to do something with them in bad or good taste. And that's the case overall. I mean, if we wanted any of us could do things of extreme bad taste with our Marvel and Star Wars figures, but we don't. The existence of these figures I don't see as offensive, it's what the collector does with it.

As far as serial killers go, that's a little touchier. More personal than a political leader making orders. I think serial killers are a little more tasteless, I'm not offended personally, but I can see the issue. Jack the Ripper maybe not, we don't know who he is, but Dahmer, Manson, Gacey, I mean I know people who were friends w/Gacey's victims, I think those are all a bit much.

metaphorge said:

I'm of the opinion that every high school student in the US should have to watch Schindler's List to be able to graduate. It's a start.

Fat chat that would happen, though.

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In my highschool most teachers made us, they just fast forwarded through the "nude scenes."

I actually know 4 Polish guys (nothing against the Polish, hey I'M 50%, but born and raised in the states, they just happened to be) who claim the holocaust was a sham and that Jewish people need to still be purged. They were taught this from people in Poland they claim. They also think "If America was free that they should be able to walk out onto the street butt naked smoking pot" I agreed and said only if I had the right to hit them with my car for being jags. That has nothing to do with anything I guess, just made me think of those dudes. They're nice guys deep down, just mislead. They won't talk to me now though.......my wife is Jewish

PosterBoyKelly said:

They also think "If America was free that they should be able to walk out onto the street butt naked smoking pot" I agreed and said only if I had the right to hit them with my car for being jags.

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Great retort.

Also, as a side point, I think all countries have extremists at both ends of the spectrum. I, for one, wouldn't consider Stalin any better than Hitler.

I've just become aware of eBay's policy of stopping auctions for 1:6 figures with any Nazi emblems. I read the policy, and believe they would stop even the "Officer" Kroenen auctions if they knew what uniform he wears. They clearly won't permit the Jugend figure to be auctioned. When you consider some of what they do allow in their "Mature Audiences" section -- that's the section for people who haven't grown up -- it's disturbing to see them become selective censors.

Frankly, it galls me that they presume that owning a Hitler or Goering or Himmler figure implies a reverence for these people, or at least that eBay has caved to "community sensibilities" making the same presumption. No hall of villiany for you, Mr. 1:6 Military History Enthusiast.

Doesn't suppressing WWII Nazi Party imagery just give it an inappropriate appeal? Have they never seen Apt Pupil? Or do they want people to remember, but remember their way? What eBay is doing is political correctness run amuck. It's what happens in any monopoly -- arrogance reigns.

Agent0028 said:

I, for one, wouldn't consider Stalin any better than Hitler.

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Stalin killed thousands of his own people for no good reason, I'm with you.

PosterBoyKelly said:

Stalin killed thousands of his own people for no good reason, I'm with you.

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Stalin killed 3 times more people than Hitler.

I think 1:6 historical figures are great. I think a 1:6 scale concentration camp could teach people alot more about what went on in them then alot of dry reading. In fact the only thing that may be better than 1:6 as teaching tool would be to actually visit one.

I thought that DiD's timing couldn't have been better when they began releasing their ceremonial Nazi party figures, after when the early furor over war toys died down. I appreciate an individual's conscience that would not allow that person to disrespect victims of atrocities by contributing to these figures' demand, but I really found it ridiculous how some groups back in the day gave bad publicity for KB Toys for carrying 21st Century's innocuous (non SS) German figures, such as their Fallshcirmjager, Russian Front figure, etc. That was utterly stupid, uncalled for and ironically a sore example of the intolerance that to me is no different from the kind that feeds prejudicial policies that still plagues world events today.